GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYONE. I HOPE YOU GUYS ARE REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS PANEL. I CERTAINLY AM. I'M MICHAEL BARR. I AM THE DEAN HERE AT THE GERALD R. FORD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC POLICY. I AM THRILLED TO WELCOME YOU ALL HERE FOR THIS SPECIAL EVENT. RACIAL BIAS AND CALL DRIVEN POLICING. WE'VE SEEN AN OUTCRY OVER INCIDENTS IN WHICH POLICE HAVE BEEN CALLED TO INTERVENE IN SITUATIONS WHERE PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE GOING ABOUT DAILY LIFE. SITTING IN A STARBUCKS, GOING TO THE POOL, OR AS WHAT HAPPENS HERE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, JUST FALLING ASLEEP IN THE COMMON ROOM. THESE MOMENTS THAT RECEIVE NATIONAL ATTENTION REPRESENT A TINY FRACTION OF THE MANY CALLS THAT 911 CENTERS RECEIVE EVERY DAY. AND THESE CALLS OFTEN RESULT IN POLICE PRESENCE THAT COULD ESCALATE A SITUATION AND CAUSE ENORMOUS HARM. THESE ISSUES AFFECT MEMBERS OF OUR OWN COMMUNITY AND THEY RAISE VERY BROAD ISSUES OF PUBLIC POLICY. AND THAT'S WHY I AM JUST THRILLED THAT WE HAVE OUR PANEL HERE TODAY. THE PANEL WAS CONCEIVED BY OUR OWN PhD STUDENT JES JESSICA GILLOOLY WHO WILL ADDRESS INSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURES BEHIND CALL-DRIVEN POLICING AND DISCUSS ALTERNATIVES TO THE CURRENT SYSTEM. WE'RE THRILLED TO WELCOME SHERIFF JERRY CLAYTON AND NYU LAW PREFER BARRY FREEDMAN TO THE FORD SCHOOL AS THEY JOIN JESSICA FOR THIS IMPORTANT CONVERSATION. OUR MODERATOR MY COLLEAGUE DAVID THATCHER WILL INTRODUCE THE PANELISTS IN MORE DETAIL AND WILL MODERATE WHAT WILL CERTAINLY BE AN INTERESTING AND PROVOCATIVE CONVERSATION. LET ME JUST SAY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FORMAT. WE'LL HAVE TIME TOWARDS THE END FOR QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE. PLEASE FILL OUT YOUR QUESTION CARDS AND OUR TEAM WILL PICK THEM UP. FOR WATCH WATCHING ONLINE TODAY, PLEASE TWEET YOUR QUESTIONS USING THE HASHTAG #POLICYTALKS. FORD SCHOOL PROFESSOR LUKE SCHAFER AND TWO STUDENTS ANDREA WILL SHIFT THROUGH THE QUESTION CARDS AND POSE THEM TO THE PANEL. WELCOME THE FORD SCHOOL, WELCOME TO THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND LET ME NOW TURN THE PODIUM OVER TO DAVID. DAVID THACHER: THANK YOU, DEAN BARR. AND THANK YOU EVERYBODY FOR COMING. AND THANKS ESPECIALLY TO THE AWESOME COMMUNICATION STAFF FOR PUTTING THIS, THE LOGISTICS OF THIS PANEL TOGETHER. SO, WE'VE BEEN STRUGGLING WITH THE PROBLEM MUCH RACE IN POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY. BUT THE DEBATE ABOUT THAT PROBLEM AND THE DEMANDS FOR CHANGE HAVE BEEN ESPECIALLY VISIBLE OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS OR SO. AND THOSE DEMANDS OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS HAVE MOSTLY FOCUSED ON THE CHOICES THAT POLICE THEMSELVES MAKE ABOUT HOW AND WHEN TO USE THEIR AUTHORITY. THE CHOICES THAT POLICE OFFICERS MAKE ABOUT WHEN TO STOP AND FRISK PEOPLE ON THE STREET, WHEN TO RAID THEIR HOUSES, WHEN TO PUT SOMEONE'S NAME IN A GANG DATABASE, WHEN TO SHOOT THEM. OBVIOUSLY, THOSE ARE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, BUT THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY QUESTIONS THAT WE NEED TO BE ASKING IF WE WANT TO UNDERSTAND AND REDUCE THE PROBLEM OF RACIAL DISPARITIES IN POLICING. POLICE POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY AND MOST PLACES IS REACTIVE. MOST POLICE DEPARTMENTS SPEND THE LION'S SHARE OF THEIR TIME RESPONDING TO 911 CALLS RATHER THAN MAKING THEIR OWN INDEPENDENT DECISIONS ABOUT WHEN TO INTERVENE. AND WHAT WE'RE FINDING IS THAT PEOPLE CALL 911 FOR ALL SORTS OF CRAZY REASONS. THE MOMENT THAT MADE THAT REALLY VIVID TO A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME LAST YEAR IN THE INCIDENT DEAN BARR ALLUDED TO WHEN A STARBUCKS MANAGER CALLED THE POLICE ON TWO BLACK MEN WHO WERE WAITING IN A COFFEE SHOP FOR A BUSINESS PARTNER. THE POLICE WHO MADE THAT ARREST WEREN'T ENTIRELY BLAMELESS AND THE POLICE CHIEF ENDED UP APOLOGY FOR WHAT THEY DID, BUT THE PRIME MOVER BEHIND THOSE ARRESTS WAS A PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL. IT WAS THE MANAGER OF THAT STARBUCKS WHO CALLED THE POLICE IN THE FIRST PLACE AND THEN INSISTED THAT THOSE TWO MEN WERE TRESPASSERS. THAT KIND OF THING HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. WE'VE SEEN A BLACK UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR ARRESTED WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO GET IN TO HIS OWN APARTMENT BECAUSE A NEIGHBOR THOUGHT HE LOOKED SUSPICIOUS AND CALLED THE POLICE TO REPORT A POSSIBLE BURGLARY IN PROCESS. WE'VE SEEN TWO NATIVE AMERICAN TEENAGERS PULLED OFF A CAMPUS TOUR AT COLORADO STATE UNIVERSITY BECAUSE A WOMAN CALLED THE CAMPUS POLICE SAYING THEY MADE HER NERVOUS. AND WE'VE SEEN AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN WHO RUNS A YOUTH MENTORING PROGRAM FOR KIDS IN MURRIETA, GEORGIA WHO WAS QUESTIONED BY THE POLICE BECAUSE A WOMAN THOUGHT IT WAS SUSPICIOUS TO SEE A BLACK MAN WITH TWO WHITE KIDS, SO SHE CALLED 911. THIS ISN'T A NEW PROBLEM, BUT SINCE THE STARBUCKS ARREST WE FINALLY START TO NOTICE IT AND TO TALK ABOUT IT AND TO THINK ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT IT. WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THE DEMANDS ON POLICE TO CHECK UP ON SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE OR PEOPLE WHO MAKE THEM NERVOUS WHEN IT TURNS OUT THAT THE REASON THE CALLER CONSIDERED THOSE PEOPLE SUSPICIOUS OR SCARY WAS THAT THEY WERE AFRICAN-AMERICAN OR NATIVE AMERICAN OR WORE A HEAD SCARF. WE SET UP THE 911 SYSTEM TO MAKE THE POLICE ACCESSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC, AND THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT GOAL. BUT THEN WE FIND THAT SOME NON-TRIVIAL SHARE OF 911 CALLS ARE UNFOUNDED AND POSSIBLY THE PRODUCT OF RACIAL BIAS AND RACIAL ANIMUS. WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THAT? THIS IS THE QUESTION THAT OUR PANELISTS ARE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT TODAY. THEY'RE EACH GOING TO BEGIN WITH ABOUT TEN MINUTES OR SO EACH OFFERING THEIR OWN THOUGHTS ON THAT ISSUE. THEN I HAVE A QUESTION OR TWO TO POSE TO THEM. AND THEN FINALLY WE'LL OPEN IT UP TO QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE AS DEAN BARR MENTIONED FILL OUT THE QUESTION CARDS THAT WERE DISTRIBUTED AND HAND THEM TO A STAFF PERSON OR TWEET THEM AT HASHTAG #POLICYTALKS. I'M NOT GOING TO DO A LOT OF INTRODUCTIONS. THE BIOS OF OUR PRESENTERS ARE AVAILABLE IN YOUR PROGRAM. SHERIFF CLAYTON FROM THE WASHTENAW COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE IS TO MY LEFT. IN THE MIDDLE WE HAVE BARRY FRIEDMAN, PROFESSOR OF LAW AT NEW YORK UNIVERSITY AND DIRECTOR OF THE POLICING PROJECT. FINALLY, JESSICA GILLOOLY OUR FANTASTIC DOCTORAL STOU STUDENT WHO WAS THE PERSON WHO CONCEIVED AND ORGANIZED THIS PANEL. NOT SOMETHING THAT DOCTORAL STUDENTS USUALLY PULL OFF. SHE HERSELF HAS ALREADY BECOME ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S LEADING EXPERTS ON THIS TOPIC WITH THIS REMARKABLY, YOU KNOW, INTERESTING WORK THAT SHE'S DONE, THIS TWO-YEAR LONG ETSDZ NOTHING RA FI SHE'S DONE OF A MAJOR CALL CENTER. HER WORK HAS CHANGED THE WAY I THINK ABOUT THIS ISSUE. SHE'S GOING TO START US OFF BY OFFERING HER ANALYSIS OF THE STARBUCKS PROBLEM AND WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING ABOUT IT. JESSICA? JESSICA GILLOLLY: THANK YOU FOR THE INTRODUCTION, DAVID AND DEAN BARR. THANK YOU TO MY FELLOW PANELISTS FOR BEING HERE. CALLING 911 IS THE PUBLIC'S MOST COMMON FORM OF INTERACTION WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT. OVER 240 MILLION CALLS ARE MADE TO 911 IN THE U.S. EACH YEAR. THESE CALLS FREQUENTLY LEAD TO POLICE CITIZEN ENCOUNTERS. ACCORDING TO THE BUREAU OF JUSTICE STRATEGIES, IN 2011 OF THE ESTIMATED 62.9 MILLION US RESIDENTS WHO HAD ONE OR MORE CONTACTS WITH THE POLICE, OVER HALF OF THOSE CONTACTS WERE BECAUSE A CALLER REQUESTED POLICE SERVICES. REQUESTS HOWEVER COME FROM CALLERS WHO HAVE THEIR OWN BIASES ABOUT PEOPLE AND PLACES. AS WE'VE SEEN RECENTLY IN THE NEWS AND DAVID JUST MENTIONED THESE CALLS CAN LEAD TO EXCESSIVE, UNJUSTIFIED AND RACIALLY MOTIVATED POLICE-CITIZEN CONTACTS. DESPITE THE ROLE OF THE 911 SYSTEM IN SHAPING MUCH OF POLICE WORK, IT'S OFTEN LEFT OUT OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT POLICING. LATELY THOUGH AFTER INCIDENTS LIKE THE 911 CALL FROM A PHILADELPHIA STARBUCKS ABOUT TWO BLACK MEN NOT MAKING A PURCHASE WHICH LED TO THEIR ARREST, IT HAS BECOME CLEAR THAT THE CALLER CAN PLAY A ROLE IN THE PROBLEM. BUT THE ROLE THAT THE 911 OPERATOR PLAYS IN HANDLING SUCH CALLS IS STILL LARGELY OVERLOOKED BY THE PUBLIC AND POLICY MAKERS ALIKE. THIS AFTERNOON I'M GOING TO TELL YOU ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE WORKING AS A I THINK DISPATCH COULD PLAY IN REDUCING RACIALLY MOTIVATED POLICE ENCOUNTERS. IT MAY NOT BE SURPRISING THAT DISPATCH IS OFTEN OVERLOOKED IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT POLICING. 911 OPERATORS DO NOT VISIBLY INTERACT WITH THE PUBLIC THE WAY THE POLICE DO. AND THE PLACES THEY WORK ARE OFTEN INTENTIONALLY UNMARKED. I REMEMBER THE DIFFICULTY I HAD LOCATING THE 911 CENTER WHEN I WAS APPLYING TO WORK AS A CALL TAKER. THERE ARE NO SIGNS ON THE DOORS, NO BUSINESSES LISTED IN GOOGLE MAPS FOR THE ADDRESS I WAS GIVEN, NOR ANY MENTION OF THE LOCATION ON THE LOCAL POLICE WEBSITES. ONLY ONCE I WALKED ON TO THE FLOOR OF METRO DISPATCH IN WASHTENAW COUNTY DID THE VOICES BEHIND 911 TAKE SHAPE. INSIDE METRO DISPATCH BETWEEN SOMETIMES 16-HOUR SHIFTS. BETWEEN 1-3 CALL TAKERS ARE TASKED WITH ANSWERING QUESTIONS, GATHERING INFORMATION FROM CALLERS, CLASSIFYING CALLS AND ENTERING ALL THAT INFORMATION INTO THE COMPUTER SYSTEM. THE TWO DISPATCHERS FOR THE COUNTY THEN READ THAT INFORMATION ON THEIR OWN COMPUTERS, ASSIGN POLICE UNITS, AND RELAY THE INFORMATION OVER THE RAID YES TO THE RESPONDING OFFICERS. METRO DISPATCH IS A CONSOLIDATED P SOP OR PUBLIC SAFETY ANSWERING POINT. MEANING IT HANDLES 911 AND NON-EMERGENCY CALLS FOR OVER AND DISPATCHES FOR SIX SEPARATE POLICE AGENCIES EACH WITH THEIR OWN POLICIES AND PRACTICES. SO THIS MEANS THE CENTER RECEIVED ON AVERAGE 1300 CALLS PER DAY. SO, A 911 OPERATOR CAN BE ANSWERING A CALL EVERY TWO MINUTES DURING A TYPICAL AFTERNOON SHIFT. I REMEMBER FREQUENTLY HAVING THREE OR FOUR CALLS ON HOLD AND PICKING UP RINGING 911 LINES. SO, THIS MEANS 911 CALL TAKERS HAVE SECONDS TO PERFORM A KEY JOB FUNCTION. MAKE SENSE OF A CALLER'S REQUEST AND DETERMINE IF IT MERITS POLICE ATTENTION. BECAUSE DISPATCH ALLOCATES A FINITE PUBLIC RESOURCE, THE POLICE, IT REQUIRES EFFECTIVE GATEKEEPERS. GATE KEEPING IS DIFFICULTY IN AN ENVIRONMENT OF UNCERTAINTY AND CONFUSION AND CALL TAKERS UNDERSTANDABLY RELY ON THE MOTTO: WHEN IN DOUBT SEND THEM OUT. "THEM" BEING THE POLICE. THIS PRACTICE OF INDISCRIMINATELY SENDING OUT THE POLICE UNDERMINES THE CORE GATE KEEPING FUNCTION OF THE 911 OPERATOR AND CAN BE ESPECIALLY TROUBLING WHEN CALLS APPEAR MOTIVATED BY PREJUDICE. MANY PEOPLE CONSIDER THE HARDEST CALLS FOR THE 911 OPERATORS AS THE ONES WHERE CALLERS ARE HYSTERICAL, NOT PROVIDING NEEDED INFORMATION, AND THE CALLERS IN GRAVE PHYSICAL DANGER. HANDLING THESE CALLS IS NOT EASY. I WOULD FEEL MY HEART RATE RISE, MY HANDS START SHAKING AND MY BREATH SHORTEN IN THESE MOMENTS. UNDOUBTEDLY THEY'RE ONE OF THE REASONS WHY EMERGENCY DISPATCHING IS RANKED AMONG THE MOST STRESSFUL JOBS. BUT ONE THING ABOUT THESE CALLS THAT IS NOT STRESSFUL IS THEY CLEARLY REQUIRE A SHIFT LAW ENFORCEMENT RESPONSE. THERE ARE NO AMBIGUITIES ABOUT WHETHER TO SEND THE POLICE WHEN A PERSON HAS BEEN SHOT, STABBED OR MUGGED. RACIALLY MOTIVATED CALLS WITH LITTLE LEGITIMATE RATI RATIONALE, ON THE OTHER HAND, ARE UNIQUELY STRESSFUL BECAUSE THEY RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER POLICE ATTENTION IS WARRANTED. ABOUT A YEAR IN TO WORKING AS A 911 CALL TAKER I TOOK A CALL ON A LATE FALL AFTERNOON FROM A WOMAN IN A PARK. SHE WAS CALLING ON A BLACK WOMAN WHO WAS STANDING NEAR A GRILL, QUOTE, MAYBE COOKING DRUGS. WHEN I ASKED HER WHY SHE THOUGHT THE WOMAN WAS COOKING DRUGS SHE RESPONDED, QUOTE, I SAW HER HERE BEFORE AND SHE LOOKS SUSPICIOUS. AND THIS TIME SHE LOOKS MORE SUSPICIOUS. THAT WAS HER ONLY JUSTIFICATION FOR HER CALL TO THE POLICE. I DIDN'T PUSH BACK, EVEN THOUGH I VERY MUCH WANTED TO. INSTEAD, I THANKED THE CALLER FOR THE INFORMATION, ENTERED THE CALL FOR DISPATCH, AND NERVOUSLY WAITED FOR THE DISPATCHER TO SEE WHAT I HAD ENTERED. MOMENTS LATER I HEARD THE DISPATCHER YELL AT ME, GILLOOLY, ARE YOU F, FOR EXAMPLE, KIDDING ME? THIS INCIDENT HIGHLIGHTS A COUPLE OF THINGS. TENSIONS ARISE INSIDE DISPATCH OVER LOW LEVEL CALLS THAT APPEAR RACIALLY MOTIVATED AND LACK OF CONVINCING RATIONALE. DISPATCHERS HAVE A LIMITED SUPPLY OF POLICE AND CALLS LIKE THESE TAKE RESOURCES AWAY FROM OTHER FUNCTIONS POLICE COULD BE SERVING. MORE EXPERIENCED DISPATCHERS WHO ARE PRETTY GOOD AT DETECTING THESE KIND OF CALLS GET FRUSTRATED WHEN NEW HIRES FAIL TO DO THIS AND FAIL TO QUESTION THE CALLER. PUSHBACK. BUT NUMBER 911 OPERATORS TAKE ON LIABILITY IF THEY REJECT CALLS THAT END UP BEING LEGITIMATE. SO MANY CALL TAKERS PUT THE CALLS THROUGH TO DISPATCH. I ALMOST ALWAYS DID, FEARFUL IF NOT I WOULD FACE DISCIPLINARY ACTION. BUT THAT MEANT I OFTEN FELT COMPLICIT IN MOBILIZING THE POLICE AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR. 911 AND THE POLICE ARE SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE PUBLIC SAFETY. BUT IN CASES LIKE THESE, IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT THE PUBLIC IS ANY SAFER. INCIDENTS LIKE THESE ARE NOT INFREQUENT. IN FACT, IN 2015 IN WASHTENAW COUNTY ACROSS ALL THE AGENCIES, SUSPICIOUS PERSON CALLS WERE THE FOURTH MOST COMMON CALL. FOLLOWING RECKLESS DRIVERS, CAR CRASHES AND DISORDERLY BEHAVIOR. LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THEM LED TO BE A ARREST. THAT MEANS A LOT OF POLICE RESOURCES ARE GOING IN TO SEEMINGLY UNFOUNDED CALLS AND LEADING TO WHAT SEEMS TO BE UNNECESSARY ENCOUNTERS WITH THE POLICE. SO WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THESE CALLS FROM A DISPATCH PERSPECTIVE? FIRST, I THINK 911 OPERATORS NEED CLEARER PROTOCOLS ON HOW TO HANDLE AMBIGUOUS, POTENTIALLY RACIALLY MOTIVATED CALLS. FOR EXAMPLE, BLACK MEN WALKING DOWN THE STREET TRYING TO OPEN CAR DOORS AND LOOK THROUGH HOUSE WINDOWS MAY MEET THE NECESSARY CRITERIA FOR A SUSPICIOUS PERSON CALL. WHEREAS THAT SAME MAN SITTING ON A CURB WOULD NOT. SECOND, CALL TAKERS NEED TO BE TRAINED IN PRESSING CALLERS TO ARTICULATE THEIR UNDERLYING SUSPICION IF THEY REPORT THAT SOMEONE, QUOTE, DOESN'T BELONG HERE. MANY EXPERIENCED CALL TAKERS ALREADY DO THIS WELL. AND THE ORGANIZATION SHOULD DISTRIBUTE THEIR KNOWLEDGE TO LESS EXPERIENCED CALL TAKERS. IF CALLERS FAIL TO ARCTIC LATE THEIR SUSPICION ON A RECORDED LINE, I THINK OPERATORS SHOULD RECORD AND PASS ALONG THAT INFORMATION TO RESPONDING OFFICERS OR POSSIBLY REJECT THE CALL. THIRD, 911 PUBLIC AWARENESS CAMPAIGNS SHOULD ALIGN EXPECTATIONS BETWEEN CALLING AND CALL TAKERS AS TO THE TYPES OF QUESTIONS CALLERS WILL FACE WHEN REPORTING SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. WITH SUCH TRAINING AND PUBLIC AWARENESS, I BELIEVE 911 OPERATORS CAN BE EMPOWERED TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE GATE KEEPERS FOR THE POLICE AND PUBLIC. DAVID THACHER: THANK YOU. I THINK WE'LL MOVE TO SHERIFF CLAYTON NEXT. JERRY CLAYTON: GOOD EVENING. THANKS FOR HAVING ME HERE. FOR FULL DISCLOSURE YOU GUESS YOU ALL PICKED IT UP. JESSICA USE TO WORK FOR US, WASHTENAW COUNTY METRO DISPATCH. SO, IT WAS A COUPLE THINGS THAT OCCURRED. THE EVENTS THAT OCCURRED NATIONALLY, CONVERSATIONS WITH HER REGARDING AN OP-ED, AND JUST OUR NORMAL WAY OF HOW WE DO BUSINESS IN WASHTENAW COUNTY THAT LED US EARLY ON TO BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT JESSICA TALKED ABOUT. SO LET ME FRAME WASHTENAW COUNTY FOR YOU. SHERIFF'S OFFICE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DELIVERING CONTRIBUTE POLICE SERVICES THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY. WE'RE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE JAIL. BUT ONE OF OUR PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITIES ALSO IS METRO DISPATCH. SO, FOR METRO DISPATCH AND JESSICA HIT IT SO I WON'T BELABOR IT, WE DISPATCH FOR NOT ONLY THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE BUT ANN ARBOR POLICE DEPARTMENT, IPS LANNY POLICE DEPARTMENT, PITTSFIELD TOWNSHIP, NORTHFIELD. AND WE COVER CLOSE TO 95 PERCENT OF THE EMERGENCY CALLS THAT COME IN TO WASHTENAW COUNTY ON AN ANNUAL BASIS. SO, WE HAVE A TREMENDOUS IMPACT ON HOW DISPATCH SERVICES ARE DELIVERED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY. AND JESSICA'S RIGHT TO THIS DEGREE. DISPATCH IS OFTEN THE FORGOTTEN PIECE OF THAT FIRST RESPONDER. WE JUST DID AN EPISODE OF ONE OF OUR SERIES WHERE WE CALLED DISPATCH THE TRUE FIRST RESPONDERS. BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONES THAT GET THAT INITIAL CALL. QUITE FRANKLY, AS WE THOUGHT ABOUT BIASED BASE POLICING AND HOW DO WE APPROACH IT FROM A SHERIFF'S OFFICE PERSPECTIVE, WE ADDRESS IT WITH DEPUTIES RIGHT AWAY. NOW WE HAVE IDENTIFIED THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS IT WITH OUR DISPATCHERS. SO, LET ME JUST GIVE YOU OUR ACTION STEP, OUR STRATEGY FOR AN EXAMPLE WE THINK IS A MODEL FOR HOW A POLICE AGENCY WITH A DISPATCH ORGANIZATION CAN ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. LET ME START WITH THIS. WE BELIEVE IN TAKING WHAT WE CALL AN ULTIMATE OUTCOMES APPROACH. SO, ANY TIME WE'RE THINKING ABOUT A SIGNIFICANT INITIATIVE IN THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE, WE FIRST THINK WHAT OUTCOME DO WE WANT TO ACHIEVE. SO, IT IS A MISSION DRIVE STRATEGY DRIVE STRUCTURE. WHAT WE SAY IS IF WE DO EVERYTHING WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO, IF WE PUT ALL THE RIGHT MECHANISMS IN PLACE, WHAT WILL THE OUTCOME LOOK LIKE? WHAT WILL THE EXPERIENCE BE BOTH FOR, IN THIS CASE, OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS, OUR DISPATCHERS AND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE CALLING IN TO OUR CENTER? WE'VE ARCTIC LAPTED WHAT WE BELIEVE SOME OF THOSE ULTIMATE OUTCOMES. I WON'T READ THEM ALL TO YOU BUT IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THIS IS THE FOUNDATION FOR THE TRAINING WE'RE GOING PUT TOGETHER. IT MAKES US THINK ABOUT THE POLICY IMPLICATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT. AND IT IMPACTS THE SUPERVISION TECHNIQUES AND STRATEGIES WE SHOULD PUT IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING THE THINGS WE NEED DO AND GETTING THE OUTCOMES WE WANT TO GET. I WANT TO GIVE YOU ONE ULTIMATE OUTCOME. THIS IS IN DRAFT FORM. METRO DISPATCH, IF WE DO EVERYTHING RIGHT F WE INCORPORATE THE TRAINING, POLICY AND SUPERVISION, METRO DISPATCH WILL MANAGE SUSPECTED BIAS INFLUENCE CALLS IN A MANNER THAT MINIMIZES THE IMPACT ON THE SUBJECT OF THE CALL AND IN EXTREME CASES THEY WILL NOT DISPATCH POLICE PERSONNEL TO CALLS FOR SERVICE THAT ARE CLEARLY THE RESULT OF A CALLER BIAS. AFTER WE DO EVERYTHING -- WE PUT EVERYTHING IN PLACE, WE THINK ONE OF THE OUTCOMES WILL BE TWO THINGS. THERE WILL BE SOME CALLS WHERE WE WON'T DISPATCH. AND I'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THAT PROTOCOL WILL LOOK LIKE. THE MAJORITY OF THE CALLS, WE WILL TRIAGE AND DO ALL THAT STUFF, WE WILL DISPATCH. BUT THE PIECES AND OFTENTIMES, ESPECIALLY WITH SUSPICIOUS PERSONS, POLICE OFFICERS OFTENTIMES WILL ARRIVE TO THE SCENE AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO ENGAGE THE PERSON. YOU JUST WATCH AND OBSERVE. IF THEIR BEHAVIORS WARRANT YOU ENGAGING THEM, THEN YOU ENGAGE. IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT IT, YOU ENGAGE, BUT THERE'S A WAY TO ENGAGE. THERE'S A WAY TO ENGAGE IN A PROCEDURAL JUST WAY THAT EVEN THE PERSON THAT GETS CONTACTED MAY BE IRRITATED BY THE FACT THEY HAD CONTACTED WITH THE POLICE, BUT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU ENGAGED AND THE EXPLANATION YOU PROVIDE AND ALL THOSE THINGS HELP TO MITIGATE THAT. IT'S STILL, AND I KNOW FOR -- IT'S STILL AN IMPACT, BECAUSE AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN I'VE BEEN STOPPED BY AND CONTACTED BY THE POLICE AND THEY'VE BEEN POLITE AS ANYTHING. I'M STILL IRRITATED BY THE FACT THAT YOU CALLED ON ME TO BEGIN WITH. SO, WE HAVE TO STRIKE THAT BALANCE. SO, THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE OUTCOMES. SO, FROM THAT ULTIMATE OUTCOME THEN WE IDENTIFY WHAT BEHAVIORS OR DECISIONS DO OUR INTERNAL STAKEHOLDERS, DEPUTIES, DISPATCHERS IN THIS INSTANCE, WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO DO TO BEHAVE IN A WAY TO HELP CONTRACT TO THOSE OUTCOMES? THE LAST PIECE IS, ALL RIGHT, WHAT KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS DO THEY NEED TO BEHAVE THE WAY WE WANT? HERE IS THE KEY FOLKS. WE UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT OF TRAINING. SO, EVERYTHING THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT STARTS WITH MAKING SURE OUR STAFF HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS TO BEHAVE THE WAY WE WARRANT THEM TO BEHAVE TO GET TO THE OUTCOMES WE WANT THEM TO GET TO. I WANT TO FRAME IT. I GOT A FEW MORE MINUTES. IT'S NOT JUST A POLICY. HERE ON OUR ACTION STEPS. SO, IDENTIFY THE JOB CLASSES THAT ARE AFFECTED BY THE ISSUES. ARE DISPATCHERS AND OUR CALL TAKERS, OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS BECAUSE THEY'RE RESPONDING THEN OUR OPERATIONAL PROTOCOL IN SITUATIONS WHERE A DISPATCHER FEELS THAT IT IS A BIAS INFLUENCED CALL AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DISPATCH SOMEONE, THEY'RE GOING TO REROUTE THAT TO A PATROL SUPERVISOR. THE PATROL SUPERVISOR'S OBLIGATION TO LOOK AT THE INFORMATION THAT'S BEEN ENTERED INTO THE CALL SHEET AND THEN DECIDE WHETHER THEY CALL BACK AND SAY DISPATCH RESOURCE, OR IF THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THAT CALLER. SO WE HAVE TO NOW TRAIN THE SUPERVISORS TO DO THAT AS WELL. SO, IDENTIFY THE JOB CLASSES. AND THEN PLAN AND IMPLEMENT OUR POLICY STRATEGY. WE ALREADY HAVE A BIASED FREE POLICY. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT OUR POLICIES AND SAY DO OUR POLICIES COVER THIS NEW INITIATIVE? OUR RESPONSIBILITIES IN ADMINISTRATION IS TO PROVIDE AND DIRECT. DO WE HAVE TO WRITE A NEW POLICY, MODIFY THE EXISTING POLICY? AND IT IS THE SAME THING WITH TRAINING. SO, WHEN OUR DISPATCHERS -- HERE'S WHAT WE KNOW. WE DO BIAS RETRAINING. WE'VE DONE IT FOR OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS NOW WE HAVE TO DO FOR DISPATCHERS SO THEY KNOW THE ROLE THEY PLAY. WE ALSO DO IMPLICIT AND EXPLICIT BIAS. WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A STUDY BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW IF THE TRAINING THAT WE HAVE FOR OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS RIGHT NOW ARE ACTUALLY CHANGING BEHAVIOR. SO I'M NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN CHECKING THE BOX. I'M CHANGING BEHAVIOR FOR THE RIGHT KIND OF OUTCOME. SO, WE'RE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT STUDY. WE'LL TAKE THAT TRAINING TO OUR DISPATCHER AS WELL. OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS ALREADY GET WHAT WE CALL PROCEDURAL JUSTICE TRAINING WHICH IS REALLY A FRAMEWORK FOR HOW YOU INTERACT WITH PEOPLE FROM A DIGNITY AND EQUITY STANDPOINT. THEN THE LAST ONE THE TRAINING THAT WE ARE DEVELOPING RIGHT NOW WE JUST HAD A MEETING TODAY. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO WANT ME TO SAY THAT. BUT SOME OF OUR DISPATCH LEADERSHIP IS IN THE BACK OF THE ROOM AND WE HAD A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT SHOULD, WHAT WE'LL CALL IT IS MANAGING BIAS INFLUENCED CALLS FOR SERVICE. WHAT SHOULD THAT LOOK LIKE? IF WE WORK FROM OUR ULTIMATE OUTCOMES THROUGH THE BEHAVIORS WE WARRANT AND KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS WE CAN CREATE THE TRAINING THAT WE FEEL WILL HAVE THE IMPACT ON BEHAVIOR THAT WILL CHANGE THE OUTCOMES WE'RE LOOKING FOR. THEN I'LL WRAP IT UP WITH THL THIS. NOW WE GOT HAVE STRATEGY FOR SUPERVISORS IN TERMS HOW THEY MANAGE IT. THEN WE HAVE TO HAVE INTERNAL COMMUNICATION. FOR US IT'S IMPORTANT THAT OUR STAFF UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE DOING WHAT WE'RE DOING. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO SAY I'M THE SHERIFF THAT'S WHY I AM GIVING YOU THIS POLICY. WE WANT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION AND SAY HERE IS WHY WE'RE DOING. HERE'S WHAT OUR ROLE AND MISSION IS AS AN ORGANIZATION. AND THIS IS HOW THIS CHANGE SUPPORTS US ACCOMPLISHING OUR MISSION AND CONNECTION WITH THE COMMUNICATION -- COMMUNITY. WE CAN DO STUFF THROUGH SOME OF OUR TECHNOLOGY. THE LAST PIECE IS NOW HOW DO WE ENGAGE THE COMMUNITY? JESSICA TALKED ABOUT IT. BY THE WAY, WHETHER WE'RE DOING BIAS BASED POLICING, BIASED INFLUENCE CALLS, THOSE USUALLY START FROM A COMMUNITY CALL. WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT ALTHOUGH POLICE OFTEN ARE THE BRUNT OF SOME OF THIS, BECAUSE WE'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR A LOT OF IT, WE'RE WE'VE OFTEN BEEN USED AS A TOOL TO FURTHER SOCIETAL BIAS. SO, WE CAN DO ALL THAT WE WANT INTERNALLY. UNLESS WE HAVE A REALLY GOOD ROBUST COMMUNITY CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT BIAS CALLS ARE, AND THE FACT THAT SOMEONE WHO IS BLACK WALKING IN A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD MIGHT BE UNUSUAL, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE IT SUSPICIOUS. AND VICE VERSA. WE'VE CONFLATED THOSE TWO THINGS. SOMETHING MIGHT BE UNUSUAL AND WE CALL IT SUSPICIOUS AND ACT ON IT. WE NEED TO HAVE THAT LEVEL OF CONVERSATION. AND I'LL END WITH THAT. BUT WE HAVE A STRATEGY THAT WE BELIEVE WILL ACHIEVE A LOT OF THE OUTCOMES THAT JESSICA TALKED ABOUT IN HER PRESENTATION. DAVID THACHER: THANKS. PROFESSOR FRIEDMAN? BARRY FRIEDMAN: GOOD AFTERNOON. IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE. I AM A PROFESSOR AT NYU LAW SCHOOL BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY I AM THE DIRECTOR OF THE POLICING PROJECT AT NYU. SO I HOPE WHEN YOU ALL GO HOME TONIGHT YOU GO TO WWW.POLICING PROJECT.ORG AND CHECK US OUT AND GET ON THE MAILING LIST. YOU MIGHT THINK THAT'S WHY I'M HERE BUT IT'S NOT. SO I AM GOING TO TELL YOU WHY I AM HERE. IT'S BECAUSE THE WORLD IS A VERY SMALL PLACE. FIRST, I WANT TO THANK DEAN BARR WHO I HAVE KNOWN FOR 100 MILLION YEARS AND DAVID THATCHER WHO I MET SEVERAL YEARS AGO AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO. BUT THE TRUE ANSWER TO WHY I AM HERE IS BECAUSE ONE OF MY RESEARCH ASSISTANTS WENT TO A WEDDING ONE DAY. AT THAT WEDDING SHE MET JESSICA GILLOOLY. AND THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD NOTHING BETTER TO TALK ABOUT. SO, THEY ENDED UP TALKING ABOUT RESEARCH THAT MY RESEARCH ASSISTANT WAS DOING FOR ME WHICH LED JESSICA TO SEND ME AB OP-ED SHE HAD PUBLISHED IN THE "WASHINGTON POST" WHICH HAS LED TO US BEING COAUTHORS. I'M HOPING I'M KNOCKING ON WHAT I ASSUME IS WOOD HERE THAT JESSICA WILL BE WORKING AT THE POLICE PROJECT WITH US AS A POST-DOC COME THIS FALL. I HOPE THAT TOO. FINALLY, JUST TO PROVE WHAT A SMALL WORLD IT IS, I MET SHERIFF CLAYTON IN THE UNITED KINGDOM WHEN WE WERE THERE ON A JUNKET FOR POLICING OFFICIALS. AND HE IS A MEMBER OF OUR ADVISORY BOARD. SO, IT IS A VERY SMALL WORLD AND I'M GLAD TO BE HERE WITH EVERYBODY. I WANT TO WIDEN THE LENS HERE WHEN DAVID WROTE US ALL ABOUT WHAT WE WOULD BE SAYING. YOU KNOW, HE SAID JESSICA'S GOING TO TALK ABOUT RACIALLY BIASED 911 CALLS AND SHERIFF CLAYTON IS GOING TO TALK ABOUT HOW THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT HANDLES RACIALLY BIASED 911 CALLS. AND BARRY IS GOING TO DO SOMETHING. HE IS GOING WIDEN THE LENS AND IT MAY BE RELEVANT AND I HOPE IT IS BUT MAYBE NOT. DAVID I'M GOING TO WIDEN THE LENS BUT I PROMISE AT THE END I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO DISPATCH WHETHER IT SEEMS TO RELATE OR NOT. I THINK WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE TODAY IS THE TIP OF A VERY LARGE ICEBERG. SO, THERE'S LOTS OF RACIAL BIAS IN POLICING BEYOND RACIALLY BIASED PHONE CALLS. IN FACT, THE ENTIRE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, WHATEVER METRICS YOU WANT TO LOOK AT, WHETHER IT'S POLICE STOPS, WHETHER IT'S ARRESTS, WHETHER IT'S CHARGING, WHETHER IT'S PRE-TRIAL RELEASE DECISIONS, WHETHER IT'S INCARC INCARCERATION, IT IS A HEAVILY RACED THING IN OUR SOCIETY. AND THOUGH THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR THAT, THERE'S OVERT RACISM, THERE'S SUBCONSCIOUS BIAS, THERE'S SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS AND POVERTY ISSUES THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT NEARLY ENOUGH BECAUSE THERE'S A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FOLK'S LEVEL OF POVERTY OR HOW THEY'RE DOING IN THE WORLD AND RACE IN THIS COUNTRY. ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS POLICING. THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW ABOUT MASS INCARCERATION. BUT AS I WOULD LIKE TO TELL FOLKS, VERY OFTEN YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT MASS INCARCERATION WITHOUT POLICING. MOST OF THE FOLKS WHO END UP IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM END UP THERE THROUGH THE DOOR OPENED BY THE POLICE. THOUGH JESSICA POINTS OUT PROPERLY THAT IT IS THE DISPATCHERS WHO MAY BE AT THE BEGINNING OF THAT. SO, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS WHOLE ICEBERG I THINK AND GET A HANDLE ON IT. NOW POLICE COME IN TO CONTACT WITH PEOPLE LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS. THEY COME IN TO CONTACT THROUGH PATROL, EVEN THROUGH COMMUNITY POLICING, THROUGH PROACTIVE POLICING WHICH OFTEN INVOLVES HOT SPOTS BUT DISPATCHERS SURELY ONE MUCH THE MOST IMPORTANT WAYS THAT FOLKS COME IN TO CONTACT WITH THE POLICE. SO, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT. WHAT I WANT TO THINK ABOUT FOR JUST A MOMENT ISN'T NECESSARILY HOW THEY COME IN TO CONTACT WITH THE POLICE OR HOW POLICE COME IN TO CONTACT WITH INDIVIDUALS BUT WHO IT IS THAT'S COMING IN TO CONTACT WITHIN INDIVIDUALS WHEN THE POLICE SHOW UP. SO, ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE BEEN DOING AT THE POLICING PROJECT IS WE'VE BEEN ASKING POLICING AGENCIES TO SEND US THEIR BASIC CURRICULUM FOR PEOPLE GOING TO THE POLICE ACADEMY. EVERY STATE'S GOT SOME SET OF STANDARDS AND WE'VE COLLECTED THOSE AND THEN WE'VE ASKED THE TOP TEN POLICING AGENCIES IN THE COUNTRY AND MOST OF THEM ARE GIVING US THEIR INFORMATION. AND WE'VE BEEN CREATING PIE CHARTS TO ASK HOW IS IT THAT OFFICERS ARE TRAINED? WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PIE CHART WHAT YOU FIND OUT IS THAT WE'VE DIVIDED IT INTO I THINK FIVE CATEGORIES. ONE OF THE BIGGEST HUNKS OF THE PIE CHART IS USE OF FORCE. HOPEFULLY THE USE OF FORCE TRAINING ISN'T JUST USING FORCE BUT KNOWING WHEN NOT TO USE FORCE AND DE-ESCALATE. BUT THAT IS A BIG PART. A SECOND BIG PART OF THE PIE CHART IS LAW ENFORCEMENT. WHAT ARE THE SFLAUZ WHAT ARE THE THINGS PEOPLE CAN BE CITED FOR? WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES? THE LAW ENFORCEMENT PART OF THE JOB. A THIRD BIG PART IS WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT IT TO BE WHICH IS JUST OPERATIONAL. HOW DO YOU FILL OUT REPORTS, INTERVIEW WITNESSES, THE PROTOCOLS FOR POLICING AGENCIES. THEN THERE'S TWO SMALL SLICES IN THE PIE CHART. AND WE CONSTRUCTED THIS ORGANIZATION. ONE IS ON EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES. THAT'S A VERY TINY SLIVER OF THE PIE CHART. THEN PART OF THE PIE CHART THAT VARIES FROM AGENCY TO AGENCY OR TRAINING ACADEMY TO TRAINING ACADEMY BUT IT'S TYPICALLY LESS THAN TEN PERCENT AND INVOLVES THINGS THAT WE REFER TO AS SOCIAL SERVICES OR MEDIATION. WHEN YOU ENCOUNTER FOLKS ON THE STREET IN THE COURSE OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES, HAVE YOU BEEN TRAINED IN HOW TO RESOLVE DISPUTES? HAVE YOU BEEN TRAINED IN SOCIAL SERVICES THAT PEOPLE MIGHT NEED TO RECEIVE? IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF SOME WORK THAT JESSICA AND I ARE DOING TOGETHER WHICH IS WE'RE TRYING TO GO BACK TO A SET OF OLD DATA SETS THEN WE'RE GOING TRY TO COLLECT SOME INFORMATION FROM COMPUTER ASSISTED DISPATCH. AND WHEREVER WE CAN GET INFORMATION. ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT POLICE DO ALL DAY LONG. WHAT ARE THE INCIDENTS IN WHICH THEY FIND THEMSELVES INVOLVED? WHEN YOU START TO LOOK AT THAT INFORMATION, IT PAINTS A VERY, VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE OF POLICING THAN WHAT YOU MIGHT THINK OF IF, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WATCH TELEVISION AND SEE WHAT IT IS THAT THE POLICE DO. BECAUSE A VERY SMALL PART OF THEIR TIME IS SPENT ACTIVELY CRIME-FIGHTING. NOW TO BE FAIR BECAUSE I WAS ASKED THIS QUESTION AT A WORKSHOP AT THE LAW SCHOOL EARLIER TODAY, IT MAY WELL BE TRUE THAT THE VERY PRESENCE OF POLICE ON THE STREETS IS A DETERRENT TO CRIME, AND I CERTAINLY DON'T DENY THAT AND THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT COPS HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHAT THEY ANSWER DISPATCH CALLS, IT'S ANIMAL QUESTIONS. THERE'S A CAT IN A TREE. THERE'S A DOG LOOSE ON THE STREET. LOTS OF NOISE COMPLAINTS. PEOPLE CALLING ABOUT SOMEBODY HAVING A PARTY NEXT DOOR. THERE'S FOLKS HANGING OUT ON THE CORNER OR ON THE STOOP DRINKING. THERE'S A TRAFFIC ACCIDENT. THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH SOMEBODY HAVING A SUBSTANCE ABUSE PROBLEM. MAYBE AN OVERDOSE. VERY OFTEN THE CALLS INVOLVE MENTAL ILLNESS. AND THE POINT OF DOMESTIC ARGUMENTS, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ONE OF THE LARGEST CATEGORIES OF CALLS AND, FRANKLY, ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT. AND THE POINT I WANT TO RAISE IN AS I DESCRIBE THIS IS YOU NEED TO ASK YOURSELF IN ALL THESE SITUATIONS IF THE PRIMARY TRAINING OF THE POLICE IN FORCE AND IN LAW IS THE RIGHT RESPONSE FOR THE THING THEY'RE BEING CALLED AND ASKED TO DO. BECAUSE IT'S NO DISCREDIT TO THE POLICE, BUT SHOULD NOT BE A SURPRISE THAT WHEN A SITUATION ARISES THE PEOPLE THAT YOU BRING TO THAT SITUATION TO HELP ARE TRAINED PRIMARILY IN FORCE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FORCE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT. THOUGH WHAT YOU MIGHT VERY WELL NEED IS MEDIATION OR SOCIAL SERVICES. AND THAT IS NOT THE WAY WE ARE NECESSARILY CONSTRUCTED AS A SYSTEM TO DEAL WITH THE SOCIAL PROBLEM -- SOMETIMES VERY, VERY SERIOUS SOCIAL PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO BE DEALT WITH. AS I WANT TO SAY JUST BECAUSE POLICE ARE THE FIRST RESPONDERS, WHICH THEY ARE, DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE THE RIGHT RESPONDERS. AND THE QUESTION I WANT PEOPLE TO ASK, THIS IS GOING TO SOUND LIKE ONE QUESTION BUT IS THREE. I'M GOING TO GIVE THEM TO YOU SO YOU CAN THINK ABOUT THEM AND THEN I'LL BRING US BACK TO DISPATCH. THE FIRST QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE POLICE DOING HERE. WHICH IS TO SAY, ARE THE POLICE THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO BE RESPONDING TO DEAL WITH THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION? AND THE SECOND QUESTION IS: WHAT ARE THE POLICE DOING HERE WHEN THEY RESPOND WHAT IS IT THAT THEY ACTUALLY DO AND WHAT ARE THEY TRAIN DTO DO. FINALLY, WHAT ARE THE POLICE DOING HERE? IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PLACE THAT'S PROBLEMATIC FROM A SOCIAL PERSPECTIVE THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS IN SOME WAY OTHER THAN WITH THE POLICE? WHEN YOU LOOK AT DATA, IT IS INCREDIBLY INTERESTING AND DEEPLY TROUBLING THE NUMBER OF TIMES, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE POLICE WILL BE CALLED TO THE SAME ADDRESS BECAUSE OF A SUBSTANCE ABUSE PROBLEM OR BECAUSE OF A DOMESTIC ARGUMENT PROBLEM. AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS WHAT YOU CAN KNOW IS THAT WE AS SOCIETY ARE FAILING. WE'RE FAILING TO ADDRESS THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM THAT IS CAUSING THE CALL AND THE DISPATCH IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND THESE TWO, I JUST WANT TO RETURN TO THE POINT I MADE ABOUT THE ICEBERG, HAVE A HUGE RACIALIZED AFFECT. VERY OFTEN THE CALLS COME FROM MORE UNDERPRIVILEGED MORE CHALLENGED NEIGHBOR NEIGHBORHOODS. THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS AND FOLKS THAT LIVE IN THEM LACK THE RESOURCES THAT FOLKS IN BETTER OFF NEIGHBORHOODS HAVE TO DEAL WITH THESE RANGE OF PROBLEMS. SO WE GET THE OUTCOMES IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT THOUGHT DEEPLY ENOUGH ABOUT WHO WE SEND AND WHAT SKILLS THEY HAVE. TO BE CLEAR, YOU KNOW, AN EXERCISE THAT JESSICA AND I ENTERED INTO IT, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE WE'RE THE LEAST COMPETENT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET TO DO IT, IS WE TOOK THE PANOPLY OF CALLS AND BROKE THEM INTO THREE CATEGORIES. I'M GOING ULTIMATELY CALL ON SOME OF MY LAW ENFORCEMENT FRIENDS TO GO THROUGH THE SAME EXERCISE. WHICH IS TO SAY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE INCIDENTS IS THIS THE KIND OF SITUATION WHERE FORCE AND LAW ARE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED? ARE THEY SITUATIONS WHERE FORCE AND LAW ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT THE RIGHT RESPONSE? ARE SITUATIONS WHERE YOU MIGHT WANT FORCE AVAILABLE. TAKE A DOMESTIC ARGUMENT WHICH COULD TURN INTO A VERY SERIOUS SITUATION, BUT YOU MIGHT WANT IT IN THE BACKGROUND WHICH IS NOT HOW WE CONSTRUCT THINGS. WE DON'T OFTEN ENOUGH HAVE CO-RESPONSE WHERE YOU MIGHT NEED FORCE THERE BUT THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE PRIMARY ACTOR. WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WAYS TO RESPOND IN SOCIETY -- YOU KNOW THE SHERIFF WAS TALKING ABOUT ULTIMATE OUT YOMS AND I LIKE THAT EXPRESSION. I OFTEN TALK ABOUT OPTIMUM OUTCOMES. IF WE TAKE THE INCIDENT WHAT IS THE BEST WE CAN HOPE FOR AS SOCIETY IN THAT SITUATION? WHICH BRINGS ME BACK TO DISPATCH. AS JESSICA'S POINTED OUT AND AS THE SHERIFF'S POINTED OUT, WHAT MATTERS AT SOME LEVEL IS TRIAGE. I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCCESSFUL WE CAN BE AT TRIAGE AT THAT STAGE. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT. I'M STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT JESSICA SAYS WE HAVE SECONDS TO MAKE A DECISION. THAT'S NOT VERY LONG. BUT THERE ARE AREAS IN THE WORLD WHEN E WE DO TRIAGE, WE DO IT BETTER THAN I THINK WE DO IT IN THE DISPATCH AREA. TRIAGE ASSUMES THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE OTHER RESPONSES OR A PANOPLY OF RESPONSES TO THE PROBLEMS. BUT I THINK THAT WE NEED TO START AT DISPATCH WITH THAT KIND OF TRIAGED RESPONSE AND WORK OUT TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN GET OPTIMAL OUTCOMES IN ALL THESE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS. DAVID THACHER: I'M GOING TO ASK ONE QUESTION THEN WE'LL TURN IT OVER TO THE AUDIENCE. IF YOU HAVE ONE, WRITE IT OUT ON YOUR INDEX CARD, HAND IT TO SOMEBODY WALKING BY OR TWEET IT TO HASHTAG #POLICYTALKS. THE QUESTION I WANT TO POSE ABOUT IS THE EARLY RESPONSES WE'VE SEEN IN THE POLICY WORLD OVER THE LAST YEAR TO THIS PROBLEM WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. AS THIS ISSUE'S GOTTEN MORE ATTENTION ACROSS THE COUNTRY OVER THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS WE'VE STARTED TO SEE POLICY MAKERS START TO TAKE ACTION. MAYBE NOT A LOT OF CONCRETE CHANGES BUT ATTEMPTS TO FRAME THE ISSUE WITH SOME STRONG STATEMENTS ABOUT WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN NEXT. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, A FEW MONTHS AGO PARTLY INSPIRED BY OP-EDS LIKE THE ONE JESSICA WROTE THE ALEXANDRIA DEMOCRATIC COMMITTEE PASSED A RESOLUTION CALLED ON 911 CENTERS TO DO MORE TO ENCOURAGE CALL TAKERS TO PUSH BACK ON CALLS, TO ASK CALL TAKERS, DISPATCHERS, TO TELL OFFICERS WHEN THEY HAVE REASON TO DOUBT WHAT THE CALLER TOLD THEM WHEN THEY DISPATCH OVER THE RADIO, THEN FINALLY TO DO MORE OF THE PUBLIC OUTREACH WORK THAT ALL THE PANELISTS HAVE MENTIONED TO DISCOURAGE IMPROPER CALLS. I WANT TO BE CON KEET HERE AND JUST READ A COUPLE OF PASSAGES FROM THAT RESOLUTION. BE IT RESOLVED THAT THE ALEXANDRIA DEMOCRATIC COMMITTEE URGES 911 CENTERS TO CONTINUE TO TRAIN DISPATCHERS TO ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE IF THERE'S A REASONABLE CONCERN FOR A CALLER'S SAFETY OR THE SAFETY OF OTHERS OR IF THE PERSON IS CALLING ONLY BECAUSE OF EXPLICIT OR IMPLICIT BIAS TOWARDS MINORITY GROUP MEMBERS. IT GOES ON TO URGE... 911 DISPATCHERS TO CONTINUE TO CONVEY TO OFFICERS INFORMATION ABOUT A CALL THAT SUGGESTS THEY HAVE REASON TO DOUBT THE FACTS REPORTED BY THE CALLER. IT URGES POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO PUBLICIZE THAT, QUOTE, FACTORS SUCH AS RACE, ETHNICITY AND/OR RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION ARE NOT SUSPICIOUS AND THEY WILL FULLY ENFORCE STATUTES REGARDING FALSE REPORTS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT. AND IT URGES THEM TO MOUNT PUBLIC RELATION EFFORTS IN TRADITIONAL AND SOCIAL MEDIA TO DISCOURAGE IMPROPER AND ILLEGAL USING OF THE 911 SYSTEM. WHAT DO EACH OF YOU THINK OF THAT MESSAGE? WOULD YOU HAVE VOTED FOR THAT RESOLUTION IF YOU WERE ON THAT COMMITTEE? JERRY CLAYTON: NOT AS WRITTEN. SO I READ THE RESOLUTION. I THINK THE INTENT IS GOOD. I THINK WHERE THEY WANT TO GO IS OKAY. BUT, YOU KNOW, THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS. I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. I THINK THE SECOND POINT WAS, TELL THE OFFICERS THE REASONS WHY THEY DOUBT THE FACTS. THEY'RE NOT IN A BOGS TO DOUBT THE FACTS AS RELAYED TO THEM. YOU KNOW WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS SO WE'RE GOING SET A REASONABLE SUSPICION THRESHOLD. SO, OUR DISPATCHERS SHOULD ASK A SERIES OF QUESTIONS SIMILAR TO WHAT AN OFFICER IS GOING TO UTILIZE WHEN THEY GET THERE TO DETERMINE WHETHER THERE'S REASONABLE SUSPICION, PROBABLE CAUSE. WHAT WE DON'T WANT THEM TO DO IS HAVE SOMEONE ARTICULATE A SET OF FACTS AND FOR THEM TO TRY TO DETERMINE WHETHER THOSE FACTS ARE INFLUENCED BY A BIAS OR NOT. WHAT COULD BE OBJECTIVE FACTS TO TRY TO SEE IF THEY'RE SUBJECTIVE FACTS THEN NOT SEND A RESOURCE FOR THAT REASON. SO I THINK THE INTENT IS GOOD. I JUST THINK THERE ARE ISSUES -- THEN THE PUSH BACK. SO, I'LL TALK ABOUT THE PUSHBACK. YOU BETTER BE REALLY, REALLY COMFORTABLE WITH ALIGNMENT WITH THE COMMUNITY'S EXPECTATIONS ABOUT WHAT DISPATCH WILL AND WILL NOT DO -- SO TOMORROW I COULD HAVE A POLICY AND SAY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DISPATCH THESE TYPE OF CALLS. THAT'S NOT THE EXPECTATION THE COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW. SO, THAT'S GOING TO CAUSE MAYBE GREATER ISSUE THAN WHAT WE'RE FACING NOW. OR DIFFERENT KIND OF ISSUE. SO AS WE WORK THROUGH WHAT WE'RE WORKING THROUGH WE KNOW THERE'S A PARALLEL PATH TO WORK WITH THE COMMUNITY TO MAKE SURE WE'RE IN AGREEMENT AT LEAST FROM -- NOT EVERYBODY BUT ENOUGH IN AGREEMENT THAT THIS IS THE PATH WE SHOULD FOLLOW. JESSICA GILLOLLY: I AGREE WITH THE SHERIFF FOR THE MOST PART. I THINK THAT SEEMS TO BE A GOOD FIRST STEP TOWARD RECOGNIZING DISPATCH IS PLAYING A ROLE AND CALLERS AS PLAYING A ROLE IN THESE SORTS OF PROBLEM SITUATIONS. I THINK THAT IT DOES REQUIRE A LOT OF BUY-IN FROM DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS AND EVEN THE WRITER OF THIS RESOLUTION SAID THAT HE FACED A LOT OF PUSHBACK FROM THE LOCAL POLICE BEFORE IT WAS PUSHED. THEY WANTED POLICE TO JUST RESPOND AND SORT THINGS OUT ONCE THEY GOT THERE. SO I THINK THAT THE IDEA OF HAVING THESE THRESHOLDS AND CRITERIA AROUND SUSPICIOUS PERSON CALLS IS SOMETHING I'D BE INTERESTED TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT THAT SET OF CRITERIA LOOKS LIKE. AND THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT. BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS A FINE LINE BETWEEN CHALLENGER THE CALLER AND DISBELIEVING WHAT THE CALLER IS SAYING. I THINK TRYING TO TRAIN THEM TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTION TO FIGURE OUT THE UNDERLYING REASON OF THE CALL IS REALLY IMPORTANT BUT NOT JUST UT DOUBTING WHAT THE PERSON'S REASON IS. BARRY FRIEDMAN: SO I THINK TWO POINTS. ONE IT RELATES TO THE POINT OF THE POLICING PROJECT. SO, I'LL JUST SAY A WORD ABOUT IT. WHICH IS WHAT WE'RE ABOUT IS TRYING TO BRING DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY TO POLICING. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY, WHAT WE MEAN IS WHAT WE CALL FRONT-END ACCOUNTABILITY. SO, IN MOST OF GOVERNMENT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IS CALLING UP REPRESENTATIVES AND TELLING THEM WHAT YOU WANT AND GETTING LAWS THAT REFLECT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. IN SOME POLICING FOR SOME REASON ALL ACCOUNTABILITY SEEMS TO BE ABOUT HOLDING PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THINGS THAT GO WRONG THE POLICE PROJECT IS ABOUT TRYING TO BRING THAT FRONT END RESPONSIVE TO POLICING. I COMMEND THE RESOLUTION AND THE SENTIMENT OF A POLICY OF A COMMUNITY TO SAY WE SEE THE PROBLEM AND HERE'S HOW WE OUGHT TO THINK ABOUT ADDRESSING OUT THE FRONT END. I SHARE THE SKEPTICISM HERE THAT, I MEAN, UNCONSCIOUS RACIAL BIAS IS A COMPLICATED THING. WHERE EVERY YOU GO EVERYBODY WANTS TO KNOW WHERE CAN WE GET UNCONSCIOUS RACIAL BIAS TRAINING WERE IT BE SO SIMPLE. ALL OF A SUDDEN IT WOULD BE A COLOR BLIND NEUTRAL WORLD. I WISH IT WAS THAT SIM. IT'S NOT. SO I THINK IMPLEMENTING THIS IS COMPLICATED. AN AREA WHERE I HAVE QUESTIONS AND THE FOLKS ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT WOULD KNOW WAY BETTER THAN I DO IS THE FIRST TIME I STARTED TO TALK IN PUBLIC ABOUT THIS IDEA OF FRONT END ACCOUNTABILITY ABOUT HAVING RULES AND POLICIES AND STATUTES IN PLACE FORMULATED ABOUT POLICING, SOME OF MOW COLLEAGUES SAID POLICING IS SHOT THROUGH WITH DISCRETION. YOU CAN'T HAVE RULES. I WOULD SORT OF LOOK AROUND AND SAY, AREN'T WE IN LAW SCHOOL? ISN'T THAT WHAT WE DO? WE WRITE RULES TO GUIDE DISCRETION. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF LAW. I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED FOR A MOMENT THAT POLICING IS SO SPECIAL THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE RULES. RIGHT? IF ANYTHING BECAUSE POLICE OFFICERS HAVE TO RESPOND SO QUICKLY TO SITUATIONS THAT'S WHEN YOU NEED PROTOCOLS. JERRY CLAYTON: SO THAT'S SHOCKING TO ME. AND THAT'S PART OF THE FALLACY I THINK OUT IN MAYBE IN OUR PROFESSIONAL AND OUTSIDE OF THE PROFESSION. THEY THINK A POLICE OFFICER CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WHATEVER THEY WANT. NO THEY HAVE DISCRETION. LOW DISCRETION IS I AM RESPONDING TO A CALL FOR SERVICE. HIGH DISCRETION IS WHETHER I DECIDE TO STOP ONE OF YOU TONIGHT AFTER WE ALL LEAVE FOR A TRAFFIC STOP. I HAVE THAT DISCRETION. BUT THOSE ARE ALL FRAMED. WE FENCE THE YARD. THE LAW HELPS FRAME THE USE OF DISCRETION. THE POLICY AND PROCEDURE HELPS FRAME THE DISCRETION. AND WHAT YOU SHOULD GET IS SUPERVISOR FEEDBACK IN SOME OBSERVATION THAT HELPS FRAME THAT DISCRETION. THAT'S HOW YOU MOVE THE PROFESSION. I WILL SAY THAT. I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE IN OUR PROFESSION AND WE CAN BE OUR WORST ENEMY IS JUST THAT THINKING. NOT ONLY DO WE NOT HAVE RULES BUT HOW DARE WE REACH OUT TO THE COMMUNITY TO GET THEIR FEEDBACK FOR HOW WE SHOULD DO A POLICY. WE WROTE AN IMMIGRATION POLICY, WE BROUGHT IN OUR IMMIGRATION ADVOCATES. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS? HOW DOES THIS WORK? LET'S GET FEEDBACK? WHEN WE ROLL IT OUT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE FEEDBACK ANYWAY RIGHT? LET'S GET IT ON THE FRONT END. AND THEY HAVE A VIEW AND LENS WE DON'T HAVE. SO, A LONG WAY OF SAYING, YES, I AGREE. BARRY FRIEDMAN: SO THE QUESTION BECOMES CAN THAT HAPPEN FOR DISPATCH? IS IT POSSIBLE TO FORMULATE THE RULES TO TRIAGE AND TO LIMIT THE DISCRETION OF THE DISPATCH FOLKS OR THE CALL TAKERS. OR MAYBE IT SOUNDS LIKE ENABLED DISCRETION AT SOME LEVEL INSTEAD OF JUST REPORTING SOMETHING. I HAVE NO EXPERTISE TO KNOW WHETHER IT'S ABLE TO FORMULATE THOSE RULES. LET ME MAN SPRAIN FOR ONE MINUTE MORE. IT SEEMS TO ME WHAT YOU WOULD WANT TO DO IN ANY SITUATION AND WHAT THE LAW TRIES TO DO IS THINK WHAT ARE ALL THE CASES AND CAN WE SIT BACK AND LOOK AT THE CASES AND THINK ABOUT SOME GENERALIZED RULES FOR DEALING WITH THOSE CASES. JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK THERE ARE SOME RULES THAT GUIDE SOME OF THE DISCRETION. FOR EXAMPLE, MOST AGENCIES IN THE COUNTY DON'T RESPOND IF YOU LOCK YOURSELF OUT OF YOUR CAR ANYMORE. THAT'S BECOME A POLICY THAT WE HAVE IN OUR HANDBOOK AT DISPATCH THAT YOU TELL THE PERSON, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THE POLICE PROVIDE. WE CAN TRANSFER YOU TO A TOW COMPANY AND THEY CAN DO IT FOR YOU. THERE ARE TYPES OF CALLS WHERE THERE ARE OTHER RESPONSES POSSIBLE. BUT HAVING THAT RULE IS ACTUALLY REALLY NICE SOMETIMES. BAUPS IT PROTECTS YOU FROM MAKING A DECISION ON THE PHONE THAT CAN LATER -- YOU CAN LATER GET IN TROUBLE FOR IF YOU DIDN'T DISPATCH POLICE. SO I THINK HAVING PROTOCOLS AROUND SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE CALLS WOULD BE BENE BENEFICIAL. DAVID THACHER: I'M ONLY SUPPOSED TO ASK ONE QUESTION BUT I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON THIS. THIS ISSUE IS WHAT I'VE LEARNED MOST OF ALL FROM JESSICA'S FIELDWORK. YOU HAVE TAUGHT ME THE EXTENT TO WHICH THERE IS DISCRETION EXISTING WITHIN CALL CENTERS. THAT YOUR CO-WORKERS IN THE CALL CENTER ARE MAKING THE DECISIONS ABOUT THE SAME KIND OF SITUATION IN DIFFERENT WAYS. WHAT ARE THE AREAS IN WHICH YOU SEE THAT DISCRETION PLAYING OUT WITHIN DISPATCH? WHAT ARE SHE SITUATIONS WHERE THERE AREN'T RULES ALREADY. YOU JUST GAVE US AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE THERE WAS A CLEAR RULE. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OUTSTANDING AREAS WHERE THE RULES ARE NOT DEVELOPED AND IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO HAVE MORE GUIDANCE? JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK THE CALLS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE ARE THE ONES THAT WOULD BE THE MOST BENEFICIAL TO HAVE SOME SORT OF RULES AROUND THOSE. SOME PEOPLE MIGHT DECIDE NOT TO PUT THE CALL IN. THE DISPATCHER WHO YELLED AT ME THAT DAY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE NOT ENTERED THAT CALL FOR SERVICE AND JUST MOVED ON WITH THEIR DAY. BUT AS A NEW CALL TAKER WHO HASN'T BEEN THERE THAT LONG, THERE'S A RISK OF BEING LIABLE IF SOMETHING WENT WRONG AND YOU DIDN'T PUT THE CALL IN. SO I THINK THERE ARE DIFFERENT DECISIONS PEOPLE MAKE INSIDE DISPATCH. I DON'T THINK THE COMPANY POLICY IS TO REJECT CALLS. BUT SOMETIMES IT GETS BUSY AND SOMEONE DOESN'T WANT TO ENTER A CALL BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S RACIALLY MOTIVATED. BUT HAVING RULES FOR THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL. DAVID THACHER: WHY DON'T WE TURN TO THE AUDIENCE QUESTIONS, IF YOU GUYS ARE READY HERE. LUKE ARE YOU GOING TO GET US STARTED HERE? ARE THE STUDENTS GOING TO JUMP RIGHT IN? OKAY. HERE IS A QUESTION FROM TWITTER. AM HOW CAN WE EMPOWER STAFFED AND UNDERPAID, LACK OF JOB SECURITY, MOTIVATES DISPATCHER BEHAVIOR. JESSICA GILLOLLY: COULD YOU REPEAT THE END OF THE QUESTION. THAT WAS A STATEMENT. LACK OF JOB SECURITY MOTIVATES DISPATCHER BEHAVIOR. JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK THERE'S SOME JOB SECURITY FOR DISPATCHERS. A LOT OF DISPATCHERS ARE FULL-TIME. THEY'RE UNIONIZED STAFF. YOU NEED TO HAVE GROSS NEGLIGENCE REALLY TO LOSE SOME OF THAT JOB SECURITY. SO, THERE IS SOME LEVEL OF SECURITY. BUT THERE'S STILL WAYS IN WHICH YOU CAN BE DISCIPLINED BY THE AGENCY FOR MAKING, YOU KNOW, REJECTING CALLS OR DOING OTHER THINGS THE AGENCY DOESN'T APPROVE OF. BARRY FRIEDMAN: A LACK OF JOB SECURITY STRIKES ME AS AN EXCELLENT MOTIVATOR. SO, IT'S THE OPPOSITE PROBLEM YOU ARE FACING WITH A UNIONIZED LABOR FORCE. BUT ANYBODY THAT'S EMPLOYED AND THAT FACES INCENTIVES. AROUND POLICES THE INSENT ACTIVE QUESTIONS ARE REALLY DIFFICULT. THE ISSUE DOESN'T STRIKE ME AS MUCH ABOUT INCENTIVES AS IT ZOE ABOUT RULES AND PROTOCOLS. I'M ANDREA. I'M A SECOND YEAR MPP AND VERY INTERESTED IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM. I HAD THIS QUESTION AND I APOLOGIZE IF IT COMES OFF LEADING IN ANYWAY. BUT I WAS CURIOUS, TO WHAT EXCELLENT DOES THE NUMBER RESPONSE KIND OF EXPOSE HOW THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM ENTERS SOCIAL PROBLEMS AND THAT ARE FIRST RESPONSE TO MENTAL HEALTH AND DIFFERENT OTHER ISSUES ARE RESPONDED BY POLICE FIRST? I THINK IT IS REALLY AN EXAMPLE HOW WE'VE INVESTED RESOURCES. SO, THE POLICE RESPONSE TO MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE 24/7 365 OPERATION. WE'VE HAD THE DISCUSSION SHOULD IT BE SOMEONE ELSE? PROBABLY SHOULD BE SOMEONE ELSE. ARE WE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL WHERE THE COUNTY OR CITY IS WILLING TO INVEST THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES NECESSARY TO HAVE A DIFFERENT GROUP RESPOND TO SOME OF THOSE CALLS? THERE ARE FINEITE RESOURCES AT THE COUNTY AND CITY LEVEL. PUBLIC SAFETY TAKES UP MOST BUDGETS 50 PERCENT OF MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT BUDGET. IF I HAVE THAT LITTLE BIT OF ROO RESOURCES NOW WE WILL HAVE SOMEONE ELSE RESPOND WHERE ARE YOU MORE LIKELY TO TAKE THAT MONEY FROM? PROBABLY FROM POLICE. WHAT'S THE CHIEF GOING TO SAY ABOUT THAT OR THE SHERIFF GOING TO SAY ABOUT THAT? SO, IT'S REALLY AN EXERCISE IN PRIORITIES. IT IS AN EXERCISE IN WHO IS THE RIGHT GROUP TO RESPOND BUT REALLY AN EXERCISE IN BUDGET. WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO PLACE THOSE DOLLARS? JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK IN THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE THERE HAS BEEN CO-RESPONSE PROJECTS AROUND MENTAL HEALTH. SO, COMMUNITY MENTAL HEALTH GOES OUT WITH DEPOSITS. SO, THAT -- DEPUTIES. THAT MIGHT BE AN EXAMPLE OF HAVING FORCE IN THE BACKGROUND LIKE BARRY WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER. JERRY CLAYTON: YEAH BUT, AGAIN, YOU KNOW -- YOUR QUESTION DISPATCHING THOSE CALLS WHAT DOES IT SAY FROM A SOCIETAL STANDPOINT. I THINK THAT DOES SAY IT ALL. OUR DISINVESTMENT IN PROGRAMS, ESPECIALLY FRONT-END PROGRAMS, PROACTIVE PROGRAMS, TO HELP PEOPLE ADDRESS MENTAL HEALTH DISORDER, SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER, ALL THE BEHAVIORAL DISORDER ISSUES HAS RESULTED IN A DEFAULT TO POLICE RESPONDING TO THOSE THINGS. SO, WE AS A SOCIETY ARE CRIMINALIZING BEHAVIORS AND SITUATIONS THAT SHOULDN'T BE CRIMINALIZED. AND WE SEE THAT MANIFEST IT SELF. IT'S THE WORST INVESTMENT OF DOLLARS. IT COST FAR MORE TO HAVE SOMEONE IN YOUR JAIL IF YOU ARE A TAXPAYER IN WASHTENAW COUNTY AT 100 PLUS A DAY THAN IT TAKES TO MANAGE THAT PERSON OUTSIDE OF THE JAIL AND GIVE THEM SOME TREATMENT AT FAR LESS THAN THAT. BARRY FRIEDMAN: ONE OF THE FACULTY MEMBERS AND A FORMER STUDENT SAYS WITH PRIDE ASKED A REALLY HARD QUESTION. AND I THINK IT'S ONE WE KIND OF NEED TO DE-BUG. SO, HER QUESTION WAS: THIS IS GREAT, THIS SOUNDS UTOPIAN, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK WE'RE GOING ACTUALLY MOVE TO THIS PLACE IN THE WORLD? SORT OF THE PUBLIC CHOICE QUESTION, IF YOU LIVE IN THE WORLD OF PUBLIC CHOICE THEORY. WHAT I DON'T FULLY KNOW AND UNDERSTAND IS THE EXTEND TO WHICH WE RESPOND TO THINGS THE WAY WE DO BECAUSE OF PATH DEPENDENCE. WE'VE JUST DONE IT THAT WAY FOR A LONG TIME SO LET'S KEEP DOING IT. OR WHETHER THERE'S AN ATTITUDE IN THE BODY POLITIC. AND I THINK THERE IS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HAS OF A KIND OF RETRIB AACTIVE RESPONSE TO ALMOST EVERYTHING. WE SPENT A LOT OF ENERGY DURING THE REAGAN PRESIDENCY AND THERE AFTER DE-INSTITUTIONALIZING FOLKS FROM MENTAL INSTITUTIONS. AND THOSE INSTITUTIONS WERE NOT GOOD PLACES. THERE WERE REAL PROBLEMS WITH THEM. BUT THEN THEY ENDED UP ON THE STREET. WHATEVER ENDS UP ON THE STREET FALLS INTO THE HANDS OF THE POLICE TO DEAL WITH. BUT IT DOES REQUIRE US IN OUR RHETORIC, WHICH IS NOT THE RHETORIC I SEE IN MY TWITTER FEED EVERY DAY, SAYING WE UNDERSTAND THESE TO BE SOCIAL PROBLEMS OR PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEMS. BECAUSE MANY OF THE THINGS THAT FALL INTO THE LAP OF THE POLICE AND THAT WE THINK OF POLICING PROBLEMS IN THIS COUNTRY ARE PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEMS BUT THEN YOU NEED A MENTALITY IN THE PUBLIC TO TREAT THEM AND FUND THEM AS THAT. AND FOR SOME REASON IT'S YOU KNOW WHAT IS EASY TO GET FUNDED IS COPS, RELATIVE TO A LOT OF OTHER THINGS. AND THAT'S A MISTAKE. IN FAIRNESS, AND WE ALL HAD THIS CONVERSATION AT LUNCH AT GREAT LENGTH, WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS SHIFTING AROUND MONEY TO DEAL WITH THINGS MORE EFFICIENTLY OR WHETHER IT WOULD BE WAY MORE EXPENSIVE TO DO THE THINGS WE'RE DOING. AS SHERIFF CLAYTON SAYS, THERE ARE LIMITED RESOURCES. SO, THERE'S ALWAYS A STRUGGLE OVER WHO GETS THAT MONEY. DO YOU FEEL IT IS HELPFUL TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR DENOUNCE MANY WELL INTENDED POLICIES THAT CONTRIBUTE TO RACIAL BIAS IN POLICING THROUGH POLICIES LIKE THE OBAMA CRIME BILL AS WELL AS THE BROKE WINDOWS POLICY? JERRY CLAYTON: YES. BARRY FRIEDMAN: BROKEN WINDOWS WAS A DISASTER. AND SO I'LL ADD SOME DATA JUST BECAUSE WE'RE AT POLICY SCHOOL. THERE HAVE BEEN TOO FEW STUDIES DONE BUT A NUMBER OF INTERESTING STUDIES ABOUT POLICE RESPONSE TO KRIM OE NINIC PLACES. THEY KNOW THAT IF YOU PUT POLICING RESOURCES IN THOSE PLACES YOU CAN BRING DOWN CRIME. NOT AS MUCH AS YOU MIGHT THINK FROM READING POPULAR PRESS, BUT YOU CAN. BUT WHAT SOME OF THOSE STUDIES HAVE SHOWN IS THAT YOU CAN DO A BETTER JOB BY ADDRESSING SITUATIONAL ISSUES. YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE STATE OF THE TOPOGRAPHY? IS THERE ADEQUATE LIGHTING? AN I BANDONED HOME THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH. IF YOU GO BACK AND READ THE BROKEN WINDOWS PIECE, WHICH I RECOMMEND BY THE WAY IT IS A TERRIFIC PIECE OF SOMETHING, POLICY JOURNALISM, WELL WRITTEN AND PERSUASIVE AND YOU FEEL LIKE SOCIETY'S ILLS HAVE BEEN SOLVED. IT'S REALLY UNCLEAR FROM THAT PIECE WHAT THEY EXPECTED TO HAPPEN IN THIS MODEL OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING. GEORGE KELING WHO HAS WORKED FOR YEARS IN THIS SPACE HIMSELF AS KIND OF SPOKEN ABOUT IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS. BUT I THINK NOW RUES THE FACT THAT THE SOLUTION TO BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING WAS MISDEMEANOR ARRESTS RATHER THAN FIXING BROKEN WINDOWS. SO, THERE'S YOUR DENUNCIATION. JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK IN GENERAL POLICIES I REMEMBER A PROFESSOR AT A DIFFERENT POLICY SCHOOL, SAID ALL BAD POLICY WERE GOOD IDEAS YESTERDAY. EVEN THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT CRAFTING POLICIES AROUND SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE CALL, IT'S STILL ALWAYS CONCERNING TO IMPLEMENT A POLICY. YOU DON'T KNOW THE OUTCOME. SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE EVALUATIONS OF WHAT HAPPENS AS PLACES START IMPLEMENTING THESE RULES AND CRITERIA AROUND CALLS. I THINK THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE IS DO IS -- DOING THAT. BARRY FRIEDMAN: ERIC SAID THE CHIEF CAUSE OF PROBLEMS IS SOLUTIONS. SO, SORT OF THE SAME IDEA. DO POLICE NEED DIFFERENT TRAINING OR DOES THE PUBLIC NEED TO CHANGE EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT POLICE DO OR BOTH? SHOULD WE BE TRYING TO GET THE PUBLIC TO CONTACT THE RIGHT RESPONDER INSTEAD OF THE POLICE OR SHOULD WE BE TURNING THE POLICE INTO THE RIGHT RESPONDERS? JERRY CLAYTON: I ALWAYS PAUSE BECAUSE I GOT AN OPINION BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M NOT DOMINATING. I THINK THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. I'LL SAY BOTH. AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS RE-IMAGINING POLICE AND THINKING ABOUT POLICE IN A NEW WAY, I THINK THE FOCUS HAS TO BE INTERNAL TO THE POLICE PROFESSION, EXTERM TO THE COMMUNITY. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CULTURAL CHANGE. THERE ARE BASIC ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE HAVE IN SOCIETY ABOUT THE ROLE THAT POLICE PLAY IN KEEPING US SAFE. BARRY MENTIONED THIS EARLIER TODAY. I'VE EVEN BEEN TINKERING WITH JUST THE DEFINITION OF PUBLIC SAFETY. IS PUBLIC SAFETY JUST A LAW ENFORCEMENT POLICE ISSUE OR IS PUBLIC SAFETY AN ISSUE AROUND MY BASIC NEEDS. IS PUBLIC SAFETY THE FIRST THREE LEVELS OF MY BASIC NEEDS BEING MET. THAT I'M SAFE. I GOT SHELTER. CLEAN WATER. ALL THOSE THINGS. IF WE CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF PUBLIC SAFETY, WE CHANGE WHO IS PART OF THE GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO HELP MAINTAIN PUBLIC SAFETY. IT DOESN'T MEAN POLICE GO AWAY, BUT IT SHIFTS SOME OF WHAT OUR RESPONSIBILITIES ARE. SO I THINK THAT'S PART OF IT. I THINK PART OF IT AS WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE EXPECTATIONS. JUST LIKE WHAT THE CALL BEFORE. PEOPLE EXPECT IF YOU CALL 911 YOU ARE SENDING THE POLICE. I HAVE CHIEF FRIENDS ELSEWHERE IF THEY IMPLEMENT A POLICY AND DON'T SEND ANYBODY THEY WON'T BE THE CHIEF FOR LONG. THE MAYOR WON'T BE THE MAYOR FOR LONG AND THE CITY MANAGER WON'T BE THE MANAGER FOR LONG. THAT'S COMMUNITY DRIVEN. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT LEVEL OF CONVERSATION. YES, YOU NEED TO CHANGE SOME OF THE TRAINING. WE'VE ALREADY CHANGED THE GENERATION OF POLICE OFFICER FROM THE TIME I STARTED 30 YEARS AGO VERSUS THE KIND OF POLICE OFFICER WE BRING IN TODAY. TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. COMPETENCY BASED. WE'RE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE THAT -- LOOK, SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT. THEY ARE SOMETIMES MORE SOCIAL WORK THAN ENFORCE FORCEER. I WILL TAKE ISSUE WITH ONE THING BARRY SAYS. BARRY TALKS ABOUT POLICE. I HEAR HIM SAY POLICE EQUALS FORCE AND LAW. I DON'T BELIEVE -- POLICE DOES NOT HAVE TO EQUAL FORCE AND LAW. THAT'S NOT ALL WE DO. USE OF FORCE, SUBJECT CONTROL SHOULD JUST BE A SMALL PIECE. LOOK AT POLICE AGENCIES ALLOCATION OF FUNDS AND RESOURCES AND HOURS IN TO TRAINING. WHERE ARE THEY SPENDING MOST OF THEIR MONEY? IS IT USE OF FORCE AND DRIVING OR IS IT THE SKILLS YOU WANT THEM TO HAVE? CULTURAL UNDERSTANDING, UNDERSTANDING IMPLICIT BIAS, MANAGING INTERPERSONAL INTERACTIONS, MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS. THE KIND OF THINGS YOU DON'T SEE ON TV, POLICE OFFICERS DO EVERY DAY THAT'S MORE IN LINE WITH A SOCIAL WORKER THAN A SPECIAL FORCES PERSON IN THE ARMY. BARRY FRIEDMAN: JUST TO BE CLEAR I WAS GOING TO PIPE DOWN ON THIS QUESTION BUT I THINK WE COMPLETELY AGREE. I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT IT. THE -- MY CLAIM ISN'T THAT -- SO I THINK DURING THE COURSE OF THE DAY MOST OF WHAT POLICE OFFICERS GET ASKED TO DO IS MEDIATION, SOCIAL WORK, WHATNOT. THAT IS WHAT WE AS SOCIETY CALL ON THEM TO DO. SOMETIMES POLICE WILL SAY THIS ALL GOT DUMPED ON US AND I WANT TO BE OUT THERE FIGHTING CRIME AND I'M NOT -- I DON'T KNOW WHEN IT GOT DUMPED. IT'S GONE ON FOR MANY YEARS THAT IT'S BEEN THIS WAY. WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN IS WHAT WE'RE TRAINING OFFICERS TO DO. THE SHERIFF AND I WERE TALKING EARLIER TODAY AND WE'RE GOING TO PUT UP ON OUR WEBSITE THESE PIE CHARTS THAT SHOWS WHAT A LOT OF AGENCIES ARE DOING AND WHERE THEY'RE SPENDING TRAINING DOLLARS. WASHTENAW COUNTY IS AN EXCEPTION TO WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THAT THEY'RE INVESTING MORE MONEY IN SOCIAL WORK AND MEDIATION, INTERPERSONAL SKILLS, AND I THINK THAT'S ENTIRELY COMMENDABLE. THE CHALLENGE IS YOU STILL WANT THE OFFICERS TO BE WELL TRAINED IN THE USE OF FORCE AND SO IT MEANS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S MORE EXPENSE THERE JUST TRAINING YOUR OFFICERS. BUT I THINK THAT'S THE GOAL IS TO HAVE WELL ROUNDED INDIVIDUALS WHO CAN DEAL WITH ALL THESE PROBLEMS AS FIRST RESPONDERS. JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK YOUR QUESTION ALSO MENTIONED IF CALLERS SHOULD KNOW TO CALL OTHER PEOPLE INSTEAD OF 911. SO I OFTEN THINK THE MOMENT OF INTERACTION BETWEEN THE MOMENT AND CALL TAKER COULD BE A MOMENT FOR LEGAL SOCIALIZATION OF THE PERSON CALLING. SOME PEOPLE CALLING DEFINITELY WANT THE POLICE AND ARE SET ON THAT AND SAY THAT. OTHER PEOPLE ARE LIKE I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD HAVE CALLED, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS AN EMERGENCY, I'M NOT SURE. IN THOSE MOMENTS IF WHAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR COULD BE HANDLED BY ANOTHER AGENCY LIKE ANIMAL CONTROL ISSUE OR A CRITTER CONTROL IF IT'S AN ANIMAL IN YOUR OWN HOUSE, OR MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION WILL GO OUT FOR BROKEN DOWN VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS. LIKE TAKING THE TIME EVEN THOUGH IT'S BUSY IN THESE INTEREST CENTERS TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHY YOU ARE DOING IT COULD HELP THEM UNDERSTAND WHAT POLICE DO AND DON'T DO IN SOME WAY. HOPEFULLY GIVE THEM THAT KNOWLEDGE IN THE FUTURE WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT CALLING THE NEXT QUESTION ASKS: I UNDERSTAND FOCUS FOR THIS TALK IS ABOUT BIAS IN TERMS OF RESPONDING BY SENDING LAW ENFORCEMENT. HOWEVER, ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR LESS LIKELY TO GET ADEQUATE RESPONSES TO THEIR EMERGENCIES? JESSICA GILLOLLY: I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE CASE INSIDE DISPATCH. I THINK INCIDENTS COME IN AND DEPENDING ON WHAT TYPE OF INCIDENT THE PERSON IS HAVING, THAT DICTATES THE RESPONSE, NOT NECESSARILY WHERE THEY'RE CALLING FROM OR WHO THEY ARE AS A CALLER. I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE DRIVING FORCE IN THE CALL TAKER'S DECISION ABOUT WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO REJECT A CALL. I THINK THE TYPE OF INCIDENT THAT THE CALLER IS SAYING DRIVES THAT DECISION OR THE DESIRE TO BE ABLE TO REJECT A CALL, EVEN IF THEY DON'T. JERRY CLAYTON: I THINK I WILL JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING BROADLY. IT'S THE RESOURCES. SO, YOU HAVE COMMUNITIES ECONOMICALLY CHALLENGED WITH FEWER RESPONSES TO RESOURCES. SOME OF THOSE COMMUNITIES MAY BE COMMUNITIES OF COLOR SO YOU MAY SEE A LONGER RESPONSE TIME. TO A LEGITIMATE CALL FOR SERVICE. IS IT BECAUSE IT IS A COMMUNITY OF COLOR OR BECAUSE IT IS A SOCIAL ECONOMIC ISSUE? WE KNOW THOSE THINGS OFTENTIMES GO HAND IN HAND. BUT YOU MAY SEE THAT KIND. IF INTENTIONAL? I WOULD HOPE NOT. IF YOU SEE IT A LOT OF TIMES IT'S BECAUSE OF RESOURCE ISSUES. DO EXAMPLES EXIST OF MUNICIPAL UNITS HAVE DEVELOPED ALTERNATIVE TO POLICE RESPONSES TO MENTAL HEALTH AND SOCIAL WORK PROBLEMS? THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT NATIONAL MODELS. A LOT OF THEM ARE CO-RESPONDING MODELS IF. SOSZ THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE MOSTLY. POLICE AND THE MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL WORKING TOGETHER. A LOT OF CIT, CRISIS INTERVENTION TEAMS, WHERE ESPECIALLY IN CRITICAL SITUATIONS WHERE SOMEONE'S IN MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS YOU WILL SEE A POLICE RESPONSE BUT THEY CO-RESPOND WITH A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL. THERE IS A DESIRE AND A LOT OF DISCUSSION THAT IT SHOULD BE A SINGLE RESPONSE AND IF IT IS A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE IT SHOULD JUST BE A MENTAL HEALTH RESPONSE. THE TRICK WITH THAT IS WHAT IF IT IS A MENTAL HEALTH RESPONSE AND THAT PERSON IS IN SUCH CRISIS THAT HE OR SHE POSES A DANGER TO HIM OR HERSELF? MAYBE THEY CAN BE TALKED DOWN. MAYBE THERE MIGHT HAVE TO BE CONTROL TECHNIQUES USED TO MAINTAIN THE SAFETY FOR EVERYBODY INVOLVED. SO, IF YOU JUST SEND THE NON-POLICE PERSON MIGHT THAT BE ENOUGH? I'M NOT SURE. I'M NOT ADVOCATING. THIS TAKES US TO WHEN IN DOUBT JUST SEND THEM RIGHT? I DON'T ADVOCATE THAT APPROACH WE JUST HAVE TO BE MORE THOUGHTFUL AND IF THERE'S GOING TO BE A NEW MODEL WHAT SHOULD THAT MODEL LOOK LIKE AND HOW SHOULD WE DO IT? JESSICA GILLOLLY: THERE'S ALSO A HOTLINE THAT RUNS 24/7. THERE TIMES WHEN A CALLER SAYS THEY JUST WANT TO TALK TO SOMEONE ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON. SOMETIMES THAT CALLER CAN BE TRANSFERRED TO THE HOTLINE AND TALKED TO ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS. THEN IF A RESPONSE IS NEEDED OR THE PERSON ON THE 24/7 HOTLINE NEEDS THAT THEY CAN HAVE THE POLICE GO OUT TO THAT ADDRESS. IT'S NOT COMMON TO ONLY TRANSFER THE CALL AND NOT SEND POLICE BUT IT IS AN INTERESTING IDEA TO THINK ABOUT IF THAT CAN BE LEVERAGED MORE. JERRY CLAYTON: I DON'T WANT US TO THINK THE POLICE ARE INCAPABLE OF MANAGING A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS. CAN THEY BE TRAINED AND SKILLED ENOUGH TO RESPOND TO A SITUATION, DE-ESCALATE THE SITUATION, UNDERSTAND ENOUGH ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, UNDERSTAND ENOUGH ABOUT STIGMA TO MANAGE IT ENOUGH TO WHERE THE PERSON IS STABLE. WE AEF DEVELOPED A TWO-DAY MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS TRAINING ADOPTED BY THE STATE OF MICHIGAN. WE'RE TRYING TO DO A STATEWIDE EMERGENCE TO GET ALL POLICE OFFICERS TRAINED IN THE BASICS OF MENTAL HEALTH. TO RECOGNIZE THE BEHAVIORS AND TO GAIN ADDITIONAL SKILLS SO THEY CAN MANAGE THAT SITUATION AND BRING IT TO THE KIND OF RESOLUTION WHERE EVERYBODY IS SAFE. SO, I DON'T WANT US TO THINK THAT POLICE ARE INCAPABLE. WE JUST GOT TO INVEST THE RIGHT TRAINING. BARRY FRIEDMAN: AND YOU NEED THE HANDOFF. AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM. I THINK TOO OFTEN WE THINK THAT THE POLICE ARE GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM BECAUSE THEY RESPOND TO THE CALL. BUT THE CALL IS JUST THE IMMEDIATE NEED, WHICH SOMETIMES IS THEN RESOLVED WITH THE CALL. BUT SOMETIMES YOU IDENTIFY THEN A DEEPER PROBLEM, WHETHER IT IS A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE, WHETHER IT'S A DIFFICULT LIVING SITUATION WHERE THERE'S REPEATED DOMESTIC ARGUMENTS, WHERE OTHER SOCIAL SERVICES NEED TO STEP IN AND YOU NEED A BETTER HANDOFF. I JUST GET ON A SOAPBOX, WHICH IS THAT I -- THERE ARE INTERESTING PROGRAMS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND THERE ARE 18,000 POLICING AGENCIES SO THERE'S ALL KINDS OF INNOVATION. IN FACT THERE IS MORE PARTICULARLY THE SOAPBOX OF THE FOUNDATION WHICH TO SAY WE THINK POLICE JUST KEEP DOING THINGS THE SAME BAY BUT THEY INVAT. WE DON'T FUND NEARLY ENOUGH TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT AGENCIES AND JURISDICTIONS ARE TRYING ARE EFFECTIVE AND WE OUGHT TO TRY TO DEFUSE THROUGH THE MANY AGENCIES THAT ARE OUT THERE. SO, WE HAVE A LOT OF LEARNING THAT WE NEED TO DO. HOW RECEPTIVE HAVE OFFICERS BEEN IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AND STUDIES TO THE KIND OF TRAINING THAT REDUCES BIAS IN POLICING? HOW DO YOU OVERCOME RESISTANCE TO BIAS-FREE TRAINING? BARRY FRIEDMAN: I DON'T KNOW IF I AM IN THE BEST POSITION TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION. SOME PEOPLE ARE OPEN TO IT AND SOME ARE NOT. I'LL JUST SAY THIS. WHEN YOU CALL EVERYBODY TO A MEETING AND SAY WE'RE GOING DEAL WITH YOUR RACISM IN THIS MEETING, PEOPLE ARE LIKE, OH GOOD, I'M A GOOD PERSON AND THIS IS GOING TO HELP. SO, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE TALK ABOUT THIS IN A WAY THAT MAKES PEOPLE RECEPTIVE TO BEING PART OF THE SOLUTION. JERRY CLAYTON: I THINK BARRY COVERED IT. IT'S REALLY HOW WE TALK ABOUT IT. I'VE BEEN IN TRAININGS AND AROUND TRAINING WHERE THEY SET IT UP ALMOST JUST LIKE THAT. AND PEOPLE -- IT'S CUESTORY AND PEOPLE HAVE SHUT DOWN. THE OTHER THING IS SO GIVE ME SOME PRACTICAL SKILLS. AND SO I USED TO TEACH BIAS-BASED POLICING. I USE TO WORK WITH JOHN LAMBERT AND WE USE TO DO RACIAL PROFILING SUDIES. I REMEMBER TEACHING THIS TO POLICE OFFICERS. THE THING THAT WORKED THE BEST IS TO CHALLENGE THE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE PRACTICES. SEARCHES, WHO TO SEARCH. TEN WHEN WE STARTED TO HIGHLIGHT WAS HIT RATES. I'LL BE REALLY QUICK. WE DID A LOT OF STUDIES AND FOUND THE HIT RATE. THE HIT RATE IS THIS. YOU DO A SEARCH OF A VEHICLE, WE DO A LOT OF SEARCHES AND LOOK FOR GUNS AND DRUGS, WHAT'S THE PERCENTAGE OF TIMES YOU GET A HIT. STUDY AFTER STUDY AFTER STUDY, FIVE PERCENT, SIX PERCENT, SEVEN PERCENT. WAIT A MINUTE, LET'S START DOING THE MATH. HOW MANY DO YOU DO, HOW MUCH TIME DOES IT TAKE, THE RESOURCES AND YOUR SUCCESS RATE IS FIVE PERCENT? IF YOU WERE CEO OF A BUSINESS YOU WOULD BE FIRED. SO, IF THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DO, WE MUST NOT BE DOING IT RIGHT. SO, WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT THE BIAS. BLACK PERSON IN A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD OR WHITE GUYS A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD AT THIS TIME OF DAY THEY CAN ONLY BE DOING THIS, WE SHOULD SEARCH. CHALLENGING SOME OF THE OLD BASIC ASSUMPTIONS TO NOT ONLY SAY IT'S NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO, IT'S NOT EVEN EFFECTIVE. IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU ENGAGE AND HAVE THE DISCUSSIONS WHERE YOU START TO MINIMIZE THE RESISTANCE AND OPEN PEOPLE UP TO MAYBE THERE'S SOME VALUE IN THE DISCUSSION. SO POLICE DEPARTMENTS HAVE USED NUISANCE CALLS FINES FOR LIMITING THE USE OF CALLING 911 ALL THE TIME. HAVE THEY BEEN USED FOR BIAS CALLS? AND IF SO ARE THEY SUCCESSFUL IN TRAINING TO LIMIT THOSE CALLS?. JESSICA GILLOLLY: I'VE NOT HEARD ABOUT THEM USED FOR BIASED CALLS. AND I DO WORRY SOMETIMES ABOUT THE CALL FINDING. SOCIOLOGIST MATT DESMOND HAS WRITTEN A PIECE ABOUT 911 CALLS IN MILWAUKEE AND LANDLORDS INCURRED FINES IF TENANTS CALLED MORE THAN THREE TIMES A MONTH TO THAT THE WOMEN ENDED UP BEING EVICTED FROM WHERE THEY WERE LIVING BECAUSE THEY WERE CALLING MONTH BECAUSE THEY WERE VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. SO, THIS POLICY CREATED A DIFFICULT SITUATION FOR WOMEN WHO FELT LIKE IF THEY CALLED 911 THEY MIGHT GET EVICTED. IF THEY DIDN'T, THEY WERE GOING TO GET ABUSED. SO I THINK CALL FINES ARE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS POLICY BASED ON HIS FINDINGS. THE FRAMEWORK AND LAWS AROUND DISCRETION SEEM HEAVILY TILTED TOWARDS POLICE. THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY WRITING THEIR OWN RULES. WHEN FORCE IS USED UNJUSTIFIABLY AND WRONGFUL ARRESTS ARE MADE, THERE'S LOW ACCOUNTABILITY. HOW DO WE CREATE MORE BALANCED RULES AND FRAMEWORKS? BARRY FRIEDMAN: I'M GLAD YOU ASKED. I MEAN, THAT QUESTION BETRAYS WHAT I THINK IS THE MISCONCEPTION ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM. SO, IN ANY WELL FUNCTIONING GOVERNANCE SYSTEM YOU HAVE TO HAVE A FRONT END AND A BACK END. YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ADEQUATE, LEGITIMATE SET OF RULES TO GUIDE BEHAVIOR. AND THEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE RULES. AROUND POLICING THERE ARE LOTS OF CALLS FOR CONSEQUENCES, BUT WE DON'T HAVE A WELL-DEVELOPED SET OF RULES IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND WITHOUT THAT WELL DEVELOPED SET OF RULES, WE'RE ALL LIVING IN A FANTASY WORLD TO THINK THERE'S GOING BE ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE BACK END. ONCE YOU HAVE THAT SYSTEM IN PLACE, FUNCTIONING AS IT OUGHT TO, THEN IN FACT THE BACK END IS SUPER HELPFUL BECAUSE YOU CAN LEARN THINGS ON THE BACK END. BY THE WAY, ACCOUNTABILITY DOESN'T ALWAYS MEAN SOMEONE GETS PUNISHED. IT ALSO MEANS REVIEW. WE SIT AROUND AND FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT WRONG. BUT THE BACK END CAN HELP YOU PUT IN PLACE NEW PROTOCOLS AND PROCEDURES AND POLICIES ON THE FRONT END. THE ERROR WE HAVE MADE IN THIS COUNTRY AND I'M DEEPLY SYMPATHETIC TO THE PASSION AROUND CALLS FOR PUNISHMENT AND BACK END ACCOUNTABILITY WHEN TERRIBLE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED, I STILL LOOK AT IT AND SAY, IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO BE SATISFIED UNTIL WE DO A GOOD JOB ON THE FRONT END OF HAVING LEGITIMATE, ACCEPTABLE, DEMOCRATICALLY FORMULATED RULES AND POLICIES AND PROTOCOLS THAT PEOPLE CAN AGREE ON THE WAY THAT THINGS NEED TO BE DONE. THIS QUESTION IS: IF DISPATCHERS DO NEED TO PASS THESE CALL ODDS TO THE POLICE AND THEY ARE FEARFUL THESE ARE BIAS BASED CALLS, IS THERE ANY COMMUNICATION THAT HAPPENS WITHIN THE DISPATCHER AND THE POLICE TO KIND OF SIGNAL WE'RE NOT SURE, WE'RE GOING SEND IT OUT, BUT WE'RE AFRAID THIS MIGHT BE A BIAS CALL? JESSICA GILLOLLY: WHEN CALL TAKERS ENTER CALLS INTO THE COMPUTER SYSTEM THERE'S A NOTES FIELD WHERE THEY CAN TYPE UP NOTES ABOUT THE CALL. IN THAT FIELD THINGS COULD BE PASSED ON AND SOMETIMES ARE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE CALLER HAS NO EXPLANATION FOR WHY THE PERSON'S BEHAVIOR IS SUSPICIOUS. AND THAT INFORMATION THEN CAN BE RELAYED FROM THE DISPATCHER TO THE RESPONDING POLICE OFFICER. WHICH I THINK IS A DIFFERENT SORT OF RESPONSE THAN IF A POLICE OFFICER GETS A CALL THAT SAYS, SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY AT THIS LOCATION. BUT HAVING THAT INFORMATION THAT THE CALLER WAS NOT ABLE TO GIVE A REASON WHY THIS PERSON LOOKS SUSPICIOUS, I THINK CHANGES THE IDEA WHAT THAT CALL MIGHT BE ABOUT. SO I THINK THAT COMMUNICATION IS REALLY IMPORTANT. JERRY CLAYTON: I AGREE. AND THE PROTOCOL WE'RE DEVELOPING THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO. WE'RE GOING ESTABLISH WHAT WE'RE CALLING RIGHT NOW THAT REASONABLE SUSPICION THRESHOLD. WHAT THOSE CRITERIA ARE. THEN IF IT'S NOT MET THEN DISPATCHER OR CALL TAKER ASKING A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS, TRY IS TO GET THAT INFORMATION INTO THE COMPUTER SO THE OFFICER OR DEPUTY KNOWS GOING IN WHAT THEY'RE FACING. I'LL SAY ONE MORE THING IN WASHTENAW COUNTY. BECAUSE WE DISPATCH FOR DIFFERENT AGENCIES IT'S GOING OUSH PROTOCOL BUT EACH AGENCY DECIDES WHETHER THEY WANT US TO SEND A RESOURCE OR NOT. SO, PART OF OUR JOB IS NOW ONCE WE START TO LAY IT ALL OUT IS TO ENGAGE EACH ONE OF THOSE AGENCIES AND SAY HERE'S HOW WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS DISPATCH PROTOCOL FOR MANAGING BIAS CALLED HOW DO YOU WANT US TO WORK WITH YOU. I'M JUST GOING TO STAND UP AND SAY THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE). AND WHAT A GREAT AND RICH, INTERESTING CONVERSATION. I JUST HAVE A THOUSAND MORE QUESTIONS TO ASK AFTERWARDS, BUT LEARNED A TON. PLEASE JOIN US ALL AND OUR WONDERFUL GUESTS FOR A RECEPTION IN THE GREAT HALL. THE GUESTS WILL BE HAPPY TO HANG OUT FOR A BIT. AND THANKS ALL FOR BEING HERE.