So we're going to have the inevitable task I think of trying to sum up everything that we've learned in everything these 2 distinguished gentlemen have learned over their entire careers in in the final 49 minutes of the conference and I appreciate their willingness to engage in this wide ranging conversation is a way of closing out more activities for the last day and a half. Let me just start maybe on a more personal note not the personal to me the personal to you both. Governor and to do. Studied in Sweden got a Ph d. in Sweden and those who has spent time reaching out to and having conversations with Governor governor and for many years and I wonder whether you all might start by just saying a little bit about how you. Begin to connect and what you learn from each other. Thank you very much sir for me as an owner let me say that I'm actually I see the output from composite view to my Sida that's how I found myself in Sweden and so my school life was. Sweet. And it continues to do that in Africa so I always tell everyone that I'm actually see doubt and I'm going to continue actually building capacity and opposite doesn't stop there even when we go to institutions that are require we had us read those institutions we also have to lead in terms of building capacity so the 1st time I met Stefan was when I became governor into those and 7 and there when we started talking I have I can say that I have benefited from clearly s. And of course continue talking about other areas the fasting was. Meant by talked about coming to the Central Bank and the question was How does Central Bank actually do its own business with this massive cost central bank had only 4 branches in in Kenya and everybody was trying to get currency from the central member central banks to have the monopoly of issuing currency so one of the things one of the discussions was the fun was how do I get the kinds of money meant an event that the modern board management so that I can actually introduce currency sent us in Kenya we introduced 3 currency sent us and then of course the usual. Thing about Kenya is that everybody wanted more I don't know it hasn't happened since then but we had marked out when I was very happy that even the system that the system of even vote management we feel borrowed from Sweden The 2nd thing was that we had now a large bid after M.P.'s a success the right to write debate was how do you conduct mantra policy when 1st of all move away from them and. Targeting that is. Targeting base money and we have to move out because actually the basic assumptions are drying that base money targeting was that the money most pro was changing the rules it was changing so in the sense I wanted him to infringe they stuff that can govern us and we had a big conference Nick give a keynote address on on inflation targeting and actually how Sweden has succeeded in that information targeting and it works very well and finally I had to make a visit to Sweden so many times because I needed to understand how we can intrinsic mantra policy that is communicating mantra policy making decisions I think Kenya had already the central bank of Kenya had written moved into having an executive mantra policy committee and obviously we started even the structural models of forecasting information than the next thing is how do you actually uncle expectations and that one of them was a communication is the same thing about even M.P.'s and all that So those 3 areas I have benefited and I think it has made the central bank of Kenya what it was 80 as of been there and that lingering experience and even the reforms that I introduce us to so I trust attribute most of those to Stephan and my relationship with we but I've found that also my relationship around this institution so it's all motivated by the fact that I'm actually a Swede see the output and that is why a capacity building is still in my d.n.a.. Thank you well just to add to that I mean in the Central Bank community there aren't that many other central bankers to talk to at home. Because usually there is only one sense of back and you just don't go to the bankers and talk about your troubles. Just doesn't work that way so so you sort of constantly try to talk to other central bankers about what you're doing and how you go about doing things and you ask questions and then all of us regularly actually at the global level that tend to say the same type of meetings so in addition to kind of bilateral work we just meet and we discuss various issues that we find of interest for all of us and going to the i.m.f. the World Bank to be I have other types of other types of meeting because that's what that is the only thing that you belong to and that's where you kind of quietly can reflect on things without the whole thing ending up in the newspapers and many of the things that you actually discuss are very practical and what has struck me over the years given that I've done this now for many quite a quite a quite a number of years is that when you get into central banking many central banks are sort of approaches from the macro side monetary theory or doing macro monetary policy inflation targeting but all of a sudden when you end up being the governor you have sort of like a 1000 people or more than that reporting to you and your job is to run things. To actually make sure that other people do things that you want them to do. And that's kind of a perennial issue among central bankers that you always discuss when you meet and and some are ahead and some are behind what all of us have in common and this is a constant struggle is that all the other ones in your own country know that the central bank that's where the money comes from and there's always somebody also want to get your money. You don't want to just do that and then there are different ways of dealing with that particular issue. That's great so I want to. Switch to a topic that we've been discussing a lot which is innovation and wonder if you could each reflect 1st on the role of the central bank in being an actual innovator in terms of use of technology changes in procedures changes in regulatory approaches so how do you. Do you foster innovation from within. Maybe just start from from there and then out broaden it out I think it I think we took it all depends on where you starting from and I didn't want to follow up what Stephan and said But I think in the canyon Central Bank when I just when I went there after so many years of training economists in the University of Nairobi and and even including a c. African Economic Research Consortium and even government think tank I couldn't get economist I can talk to and I the question was how how how do you get 3 seconds in the research department. Because it's so painful when. The head of the research department tells you that we fight information and we use base money and then you ask and what is the divisions between basemen and information and he has no answer so what 70 saying is that I wasn't sitting back and waiting for everybody to work I had actually had to write those develop those models together and then changed the way they asked How do you I asked him how do you get people into the research department economist or we advertise for management trainees and when we see in your c.v. you have studied economics we push you to research this disaster when we actually say the next time you advertise I want you to advertise economist are known economists don't jump in management training they're not what they do is that you said I want to market economies I want a microcosm if I want finance guy and then you find them and all of a sudden the 1st bike we got was about 97 p.h.d. Another us very senior master's and all of a sudden now I could sit back and just say what we didn't need to do and. So that's the 1st thing about. The outcome of managing a transition the next thing is they know visions that came in one of the things of course I didn't want to rubber it is even being confronted by the market participants that would like to bring this product into the market the next thing would you tell them that it cannot work they have tested it can work so the 1st thing is a let's do a pirate in the meantime you actually preparing your team to try and understand how to do this work and what are the intricacies or even risks that may come with it and that is where you could say that the regulator becomes innovative because he's accommodative in terms of what he can do. And that's why when I talk about some of the areas that we have changed in terms of the ways and the things and all that is because of trying to see that we can actually pirate something and give the market the confidence that if it doesn't want to wrong the lines would like to we can always close that is perhaps an innovation in terms of. Us in the sentiment trying to understand things that this can work in fact when I talked about 7 introducing me to even trying to introduce currency money the idea of having currency sent us even among his Kenyans was not very clear and the politicians were good at it and saying oh you don't mean opening central banks in those regions No I said no not branches and those currency centers one house by commercial banks the Swedish mores that commercial banks were distributing arise in a way our moral was that you actually central bank issues currency So essentially what you do you take your currency into a currency center and you are given space by a commercial bank and so I argue that over time we were transferred this function that fought for me that was innovation but then the market so there are some areas that we guided the market but there are some areas where the market gave us. And for our Should I say our brains and then we had to actually risk this or to Best Buy and then see what what kind of. These communications can we adopt so that we don't want to stifle what we're trying to do but at the same time we don't want to bring something that if you bring something up you introduce something in the market and it feels the regulator is not forgiven so is the market is forgiven so easily but not that area yeah. One of the issues when you run a central bank is and this is I think one for in many many countries that you can you have the privilege of hiring the best and the brightest and many many highly educated people but it's a constant managerial challenge to get these people to actually do things that you want them to do and that's quite quite quite a challenge with us it's quite a difference between coming from the academic field for academia and sort of think about things. That's quite different compared to having to let's say implement just for the sake of the argument inflation targeting and that's a challenge to sort of realize that now it's not about how many articles on inflation targeting you have read. It's actually about when this is going to be implement and who is going to talk to whom and how do we explain this to our superiors and how do we actually get this thing done and what has struck me having worked for many years now with many many talented people is that a good number of them are actually quite risk averse and that means that when it comes to crunch time you have to choose between a and b. they sort of it bothers them and they just can't choose that's left to me and then I say Well guys you need you need to understand that I'm paid to decide things so either you tell me what's right or wrong or I decided anyway because my job is to decide and I can't leave the room you can leave but I can't and. So let's work together on on on this and this is a sort of a constant constant challenge when it comes to running running the central bank another challenge and this is completely different compared to when you are in that in the private sector let me use the concept time to market. You can build the best cell phone in the world from an sort of an engineering point of view but if it's 3 if if if if it comes to years after your competitors no one will buy it when you work in a central bank no one on the outside will ever know when you're done or not so you can always you can always write another memo or you can always improve on your last memo and that means that when you run a central bank you have to create your own sense of urgency because you are the only institution in your in your country and you have to keep pushing people so that things haven't surely get done while at the same time through and through to your point getting criticised is always there are so you had to be careful because you have to move the whole system. But if you move too quickly and then mistakes will be made and everything you do will always be turned against you by somebody else and then you have to sort of. Survive that part of the part of the exercise and that creates a very very special and Vironment in terms how you actually go about doing doing things both both really terrific insights so we've been talking a lot about the role of central banks in financial inclusion as there are lots of different strategies that central banks can take I wonder persevered briefly just say how important is it that central banks are involved in financial inclusion as opposed to other actors and then I want to stay explore a bit what does it mean what kind of role do you want the central bank to take on whether that's direct provision or enabling As you know to 2 kinds of strategies they will start with covering this system. I mean generally when it comes to our legal framework. Our responsibility is to work and try to provide and a safe and efficient payment system I mean that's in a legal sense very vaguely put so and no one has really defined what it means so essentially that has left it to us within the central bank to fill those words with content so that you actually do something which is not a legal obligation it's a sort of in some sense directional and here actually in the digital inclusion matters because if you don't have it then you have some kind of a problem when you're fine ifas and that's why if you want to run a safe and efficient payment system you really want would like to maximum financial inclusion and then you sort of work on how to get to that point but you can't force banks to do this and that or you can't force the general public to do this and that but what you can do and what you do what we do is to act as a catalyst and here the distribution of notes and coins is a good example because. It costs money to handle money and people tend to forget that and then most people come to the federal bank and said we would be incredibly happy if the central bank is willing to subsidize this whole thing because then the problem kind of goes away but what that an essentially means is that that means less of a dividend to the government so there is a cost to society as a whole to run a highly inefficient system. Now in order to run an operating more efficient system then you need to get all the interested parties in the same room and that means that you have to have people from the banks you have consumers you have to have retailers you have to have businesses and you have the supervisor authorities in the same room so that you get an agreement on what the map and what the world actually looks like and there you can sort of when this is popular term nowadays you can sort of knowledge of the interested parties into moving in the direct in the in a proper kind of direction and usually these these individuals and these are organizations have great difficulty is talking to each other because essentially they're struggling among themselves about trying to push the cost to somebody else but we can always get them in the same group and we can force them to sit there until there is some kind of an agreement on how or how this is this is managed and that's quite that's quite helpful but also struck me over the years is that in many fields where we really don't have a formal responsibility at all in the eyes of the general public they think that we have something to do with the particular money matter because my name is on the notes and then they say someone has got to be responsible for this and that means that in a very kind of subtle soft way responsibilities go beyond what we actually are required to do it's interesting to me that this is a very common way I think that many central bankers describe how they engage in decision making and in standard setting and rule making as. A kind of exercise of soft power and so I'm wondering and then and then I'll switch to govern during the but I wonder if you could just say a little bit about. When you see that that use of soft power is appropriate verses you know saying this is the rules for payment or for go away or we're providing the payment infrastructure this is how it's going to work go away. Once in awhile you get to a point where nothing happens and then you say Ok this is the way it's going to be and if you want to do the clearing with the Central Bank these are the conditions so that's one that's one issue but the other issue and here the response is a good thing. We have never had supervision supervision has always been handled in a separatist already but we've been around for hundreds of years and when things really really go wrong supervision does not matter then because people know that supervisors don't have any money on the monies in the central bank and that's well understood in the banking community so being a private sector banker you don't put yourself in a position where you know that if things go wrong you have to come and ask for money at the Central Bank not having delivered on certain things in the past because then you know for sure that the central bank has the upper hand because at that moment the central bank decides whether you'll be around the next day or. So that's also kind of an element of this so you you want to have a you want to carry out a decent conversation in peace time but also make sure that people do understand that when things go wrong things will change it's great Kevin and in the. The subject matter of financial inclusion is very interesting if you started by saying but different in different countries for example I think to be in Sweden you would not really talk about financial inclusion because 1st where everybody's financial grew it. In different degrees but when you come to countries like in Africa for example in Kenya this is a really a serious public policy because it's a market access it's a question of market access and market accessibility and different markets for that matter in general is actually very very important because it helps the poor in terms of accessing the market they can sell they are able or even exist there where but financial market is very very important because it allows them to save and perhaps invest and even in right asset base so they can escape the cycles of poverty the whole issue is how do you do that by the time I entered the central bank there was the idea was that oh we can introduce micro finance so that micro finance can establish branches closer to the population but I think for almost. 6 years the micro finance bill but the parliament again has not approved even the grade range so the I think what I did was know the guidelines were not yet prepared I think I could realise that there was a friend working with the un d.p. in Geria and they had developed a draft of guidance I borrowed that and we changed but even when we did that most of the banks that started at this micro finance had only given up and they came back so the whole issue is that you have to start all over again of course we started community based micro finance national id micro finance withdrawal threshold of capital or capital question but this did not do the trick because everybody was waiting for so many. So then that is why I'm saying then you have to trade different angles and different. Today see. Instruments that can help and that's why when I come to when I come to agents of banking for example or even M.P.'s of on financial services they became the quickest instruments to achieve that today when you go to Kenya there are more micro finance that than there was 10 years 20 years ago but it is because they are now moving in tied in with what micro finance is doing most of them my agents of banks at the same time so but what was the best a control constraint Why was financial inclusion not working because banks never realized that they didn't have the technology or they did not invest in the technology of trying to manage micro accounts micro accounts means people withdrawing comes and they have to open bank accounts that growing come is sometimes it's all sometimes the C.-Leg rain terms of growth so such screening and an account in the bank was very expensive so and then from then on if you get a technology that can manage micro microcosms then you can see what actually happened and that's why in my talk today when I talked about back to a savings account for me it was really an eye opener for the banks and that's why or of a sudden we found that we moved from about 4300000 accounts to about 28000000 accounts and mobile phone McCown's are even more much haven't that I've seen that it has the same way in Tanzania as what the same way in Rwanda so the whole issue of access digital markets is very very important but financial markets are very very critical so looking for investment and even instruments to do that becomes. We've had a lot of discussion about digital cash and I want to return to that topic now. I think it might make sense starting with with covering this to talk a little bit about the role of private money in public money what is digital cash has to play a role in that should we have is there an advantage from a financial inclusion standpoint of central banks offering digital currency is that fundamentally different or fundamentally the same from offering an account directly at financial institution how is that different from holding a bank account I mean I think there's a lot of maybe confusion in the market about what these different these different kinds of approaches might mean and there's a lot of. What I'll describe is Frost's about bitcoin in the possibility of nonfiction digital currency being important in this space so I wonder if you just reflect on the appropriate role and way of thinking about digital cash in relation to public and private money creation. Of hard to come I don't know I don't have a perfect answer to disagree if there's an issue which has been with us for hundreds of years so in that sense there is nothing new under the new under the sun. But let me start way way way way back in my youth to to Sion has provided money in one form or the other for 350 years. Now then if physical and cash goes away then that of course raises the issue should you just let it happen and say oh we didn't keep track of this thing it just sort of happened and now we only have private money or should should you carefully considered which way to go and that's essentially what we are we are doing now today this is considered to be something entirely new but I read a paper the other day where. The after had looked into what central banks have done in the past and the conclusion was that it's only roughly over the past 70 years or so it has been impossible for the general public to hold the departed with some central banks so in that sense this is not not a new not a new issue ultimately it's going to require some kind of a value judgment but we do know if history gives us any guidance and take this country as one example you had a period with private bank money only and that was not successful. So ultimately at the end of the day one way or the other governments need to be involved in this because they tend to back up the financial system in one in one form or the other being it everything physical or everything digital and that's why why this this matters and then we have and I think this is where we will end up in many countries for it made me over time we have sort of hybrids when it comes to this because. You can you can create a central bank digital currency which is sort of token based you can create something which is very similar to fission physical cash but it's the 2 or you can create something which is a cult based or you can create sort of a and hybrid ultimately it's going to take some kind of a value judgment to do it to do that too early to tell which way this is going to end up over time but having said that and others refer to to what is happening in China today and you have these new tech companies but they have just recently been required to haul to back up their deposits with a 100 percent reserve requirement Well that's essentially turning their private money into central bank money that's that's what came out of it despite the fact that the whole thing sort of started as a completely private sector undertaking so here I guess that different countries will end up with. Different solutions but ultimately it's really a political issue in the sense that money your own currency is part of the nation state and there's no way around that I mean we used to have all the kings in some countries presidents and all sorts of stuff and people that people recognize on the on the notes because part of a nation is the money that you have created in that nation it's only if you have been completely unsuccessful. In doing so that you end up with changing to somebody else's currency but then we talk about miserable cases like when it's minds about Zimbabwe and and those those issues so. My conclusion so far and my apologies for talking it so long about this is that ultimately at the end of the day. It's the political economy of this that will decide which way you will go so this will never be decided by economists only because it's such a sensitive sensitive issue which way you would prefer to know. Governor new do you want to add to that in economic maybe follow up with some like a question asking the cream of for why now the cream of our digital currency and maybe could tie up with the previous previous session they talked about America and money around during And obviously when it is digital currency does it make it easier for monetary and maybe we maybe there's a question we can follow up. When I join the Central Bank One of the things was about Montreux policy and then 25 percent of the currency in circulation is outside the banking system then the question was how how would you call that Mt reports when such a large amount of current sales in the banking system and so the whole thing is criminal in for digital currency is it going to be easier in terms of m.l.c. have to Jim I know I went to join Central Bank been unlucky because I joined the central bank when Kenya was in the dark Greece in the fact of classification and I had to try and reverse that because essentially we were getting into serious serious issues with even with correspondents banking and one of the things they argued strongly was that it is the informality of markets and informal the movement to move away from informality of money then we can actually even monitor the currency in circulation in a better way and the. Financial inclusion was one of those stories so essentially I don't know whether the claim of 44444 digital currency right now is to make sure that we have better control or is it. Trying to ask myself but I do I do think that the maker of things specially if it's going to aid in terms of a transaction. Payment System that for me would make a lot of difference and also if it's going to support Finnish inclusion but not digital currency the way it is being seen to have crypto currency trying to trade goes giving an example of a bit coin I think the 1st time we went for a conference talking about a tronic money in there would be the Terra course toward us with the governor bent on the roof turns and in that we are going to affect many surprises before you know you know months months upright process before you know it and we ask them how because but to 7 save the detainees are asking for 100 percent backing. Tronic money in Kenya that is then place a type of a transactions 100 percent but so there was no way to tell us who would even inference money because they were actually doing shopkeepers kind of function you jade cash into a chronic units of cash and that's all and it's but 100 percent is not a deposit so. Those are the there Moyses but I think the more we try to understand where we're going and where we're coming from maybe the better because then digital currency will be addressed today in a better way is not changing the way we actually know about money if we change that then obviously we go into a known types of but I think 7 say it is and it is not a known it's such that it always known is only that we go sort of the current times we forget what has happened in the last 70 or so years. I like when I when I'm teaching my financial regulation class. We're doing with this I'd like to show pictures of you know bank notes and as people are misstatements if they have an idea what this is. An interesting thought experiment. Let's let's talk a little bit about. The ways in which central banks might need to adapt their own cultures and human resources and approaches. As there are more and more non-bank actors operating in the system so. Maybe we'll start with the Kenyan case and with the rise of pace and the need to negotiate with the telcos and talk or regulators how did the culture of the central bank of Kenya change. That but that's that's quite interesting because. I always say that every charity has its own solution once you think so. I mean when once you're focused in terms of a solution and one of the things about the way the pirate was conducted in Kenya for before the impasse I was loaned is actually one of them is one of the teams trying to make sure that this cannot walk it's a pyramid scheme on the other side on the other side the other teams just saying actually we can find solutions we have a lead of the day just like Stefan say that depends on who is the team leader and the team leader wants solutions and doesn't want solutions to block the innovation we want solutions to make sure that even if it does what doesn't want what does not work today there is a problem is that it can work because sometimes some of the innovations I had. And. And that is one aspect of the. The 1st thing is that we didn't we did not have a national payments department in the central bank because even though it was a money it was we didn't have even experts in that so the whole process is a if this is the way we are going to walk then we have to push very hard to get x. But in that area in the national payments who can actually help in trying to understand the market it is going to be very difficult for a regulator to sit back and maybe the private sector telling you exactly what is happening out there you are supposed to be the regulator know that the traditional way is that you are regulated so essentially you have to have the knowledge to match what the market is telling and those are the should I say they need to months of actual up for speed in trying to to try to understand what the market is proposing and trying to understand how then can you and you actually. Push this forward what I did was always to use the their way out of. Their variable network and one of the ones that I used in Kenya was the f.s.b. evident will have done a great job in Africa today because they provide various knowledge base studies and even data to trends than what is happening so what we did was to invite Evans d. so that we can use their network even grow body to actually come up with some draft ratios to understand what is happening. I call them draft regulations because unless the parliament also passes them you cannot use them but what as soon as as long as they are draft regulations you use them because you can use them to issue guidance and that is the starting point even the institutional capacity of the central bank was helped by the draft guy drains in the end they became the guy agrees but the 1st thing is to do that So essentially if you're confronted by a new idea the most important thing is that you're to see how you can instead of setting the market the way you try to encourage the market move on where we are studying the situation then that is what helped the central bank institution and so many other issues that we can I can give examples that is that the direction that I took to make sure that these dishes not left behind even if it doesn't work been noted is that the central bank walks with a well in terms of institutional building and even capacity building and. I wonder if you could talk about cultural change that might be needed at the Basel Committee on banking supervision and at the B.A.'s and the other standard setting bodies as the world evolves to include many more non-bank players potentially very large social media platforms the big tech companies what needs to change the standards anybody's to. You know figure out what the right set of new approaches for that world might look like or do you just need to accept that the world is changing and that you can't turn back time. And a major issue in the future will be when somebody will have to decide. If it walks like a bank and it quacks like quacks like a bank and it swims like a bank then it probably is a bank and that's and that's an issue that one would is going to have to deal with one way or the other and it's definitional and then of course some some of these new providers of services will have to accept that because you can have been referring to their panel before us you can have players where let's say I am male rules don't apply just because they call themselves a tech company I mean that's not really really acceptable but that also means that we probably will have to accept different types of banks in the future and that some of them will be more kind of narrow banks maybe some of them are more kind of payment services providers and and some of them do everything the way some many banks have done for a long long time in the in the past but it just can't you just have to live with them with that and on the regulatory side decide where to draw the lines in that now you have come so close to dealing with financial services in such a way that you are actually a bank and part of it is going to be dealing with the risk aspect of this because banks have to have capital because they blow up once in a while and causes huge problem and a huge cost to society as a whole and there is an enormous negative externality coming out of a banking crisis. And if you get new players into the system that run the risk of creating similar types of s n l it is for society as a whole then you actually have to say Ok. Not be on this this is what you have to comply with but that of course will be difficult for the battle committee and other committees to deal with over time because when the world is changing you just have to you just have to change because at the same and at the same time it doesn't make sense to regulate certain entities where the whole business move to other entities so it's a tricky it's a tricky one since try yeah patience Yes Let me ask one final question of both of you and then I'm going to open it up. To we've been struggling a lot over the last couple days in the project is over the last year I think you know quite a. Big picture about what a central bank of the future might look like should look like in a way that promotes financial inclusion let me give you each a couple of minutes to say what you think should be key elements of such a central bank and again if you were able to live in the world we live in that is you live in a real world but but you have the ability to project forward in ways that free you from the the current institutional constraints that we're all facing maybe I'll. Start with the governor and then go and ask you to to sketch that out for us. Thank you thank you very much I think. I started by saying that the central banks and the way I look at it when they joined the central bank was that actually it's an agent of market development even though it's a regulator because the moment you start with especially in the markets where we belong. You are likely to find that you'll be keeping the market. And if you if you're lucky to survive because again this is politics is more broader then you do not. Find yourself talking you find yourself that you are alone in that process and encouraging the market becomes very very important because once the market has already fallen for example and we give you make the payment system or of a sudden there was no payment system and Pacer wants to come into the market you come up with an admissions we even. Even the ecosystem was actually approved finally we even created a space where you can even have standalone killers claimants kiosk but they have never managed to stand our own Actually they're still in the bank so they still except a few Forex bureaus that have tried to do that because we had the component of foreign exchange really mittens is to try and form arise and move our from the underground and it has worked well that in that way but they did they are not standard on because they still believe that you can have the transactions platforms today in a bank and operate that you can still be in can operate but the moment the market you're not in the market towards the development that you'd like and then you can once the market is upright and moving on then the central bank limply taints its core function and that is what I believe the future central bank should be is that you do not run away from not helping the market or even helping the markets to intervening creating appropriate interventions in the market to that you move in that direction and then the market in 2 to 2 to privately so on and we give 2 examples the 1st one was that how do you create credit reference bureaus in economies like ours to share information. I started by telling protections that we're going to share negative information so that we actually can push the market to the next level we want Sierra b.s. that can create your credit scores and obviously in the wrong run want to cheat the Cratloe technology that was in use but if you go into in a very. Focused when say that you want in both that even positive information you're not going you can not get much new not manage to get the parliamentarians So the 1st thing is that they accept it after some years then we went back and I told the finance committee of Parliament that we know we want objectivity here so we need to bring positive and negative information and excepted so we created a project and then Sierra bis where they were being supervised by the central bank then that project moved and became now like like a like a concert and a unit that would help Sierra bees work through but then is it 5 years ago they started No 6 years ago is that using that when the government and the president appoints you as an ambassador the 1st thing is to bring your Sierra b. certificate in of course ours are but it is going out of the central one always is Julian and he actually made it made in 0 pushed us to this idea so you can see that we have managed to create an institution that is working but it is a process of nudging market that. There are several examples that we can give but one of the things they can now is that there is no longer in the controversy about any 10 of course in terms of managing payments it is no confusion in a more because they knew exactly what what is the dividing line because everybody gets their cause that there was participating in the management but the moment you can read that market the central bank is never involved in a more in terms of negotiations between commercial banks and terror of course in terms of the product or of central bank just looks at the products insist that. This is a problem so my idea of the future of the central bank is to make sure that and especially in developing markets that you help the market understand where it's going to try to navigate and intervene where there would be 6 and try to straighten up the market for than once there upright and then moving and they're developing the market in their own market segment then you move the central bank should move on and to it's all on comedy but we live in the world where the segmented markets and theories frighten those segments of the market segmentation who creates around the edges in terms of today structural change even economic transformation but I know where central banks in Africa have moved in and frightened those segments of the market it has worked well that's the way I would look at it I would say that it is developmental in nature but they are image you cannot always carry the market with you you didn't need to remain in the segment of the market where you use your speciality and most of the capacity of the central bank is well going is going to be a combination effect. Monetary policy policy is not going to disappear it will stay because somebody has got to be there to produce a reasonably stable price level whether we call it inflation targeting or something else doesn't really matter but the key issue has stayed the same for hundreds of years. Somebody has to to make sure that you don't end up with too much or too much inflation or deflation for that matter for national stability is definitely not going to go away I mean that that will be. With us forever I think because financial instability creates so much economic destruction in economy so you just don't want to go there and then in addition to that given that central banks actually have a balance sheet so everything you do when you run a central bank passes to the balance sheet of the central bank in one form or word or the other just that's just the way us and having a balance it means that you're related to the financial sector in one form or the other because you do things together with the various participants in the financial sector via your financial your balance sheet and that creates an environment presently where you need to provide their. Efficient efficient central bank clearing in clearing 247 in central bank money and then based on that do allow the financial sector to of all in such a way that the general push perception among the general public is that. These things are managed and handled and produced in the private sector in and in an efficient way and the central bank should not. Block their pollution of that. Efficiency in addition to that and I should mention that mentioned earlier what comes and comes now when burned not so not really any more focusing on the distribution of notes and corns. More and more effort needs to go into dealing with the consequences of everything being digital and that's having the capacity to deal with the cyber risk. In different different shapes and forms and that of course takes us into a completely new world and completely new environment in terms of the competencies that you actually need to understand these things and that's because when people think about the Central Bank they think about volts. And they think about physical money or I get constant emails about people complaining to me saying why is it that our goal is located in London in the New York and not at home and things like that because that's the way it used to be in the old days you know all of this will be replaced truly understanding in the digital world what happens and sure that it is safe. Thank you Chris Clarke Gates Foundation So this is been a wonderful opportunity to look into the lives of 2 central bankers from 2 different markets but seeing how similar actually the challenges have been how lonely the job sometimes is but how much support you get from each other and from other central bankers around the world so this is truly an inspiring message to do here and I really appreciate that you took the time to share that with us I do want to ask a question that's central to this conference and that is we've talked about inclusion in the role of central banks maybe in promoting inclusion we know that not often the banks have a mandate here and so on but I want to broaden the challenge a little bit earlier this morning we asked inclusion to what end and one reason might be to prevent and help people get out of extreme poverty especially to central banks have an interest in alleviating poverty you can have stable prices you can have a well functioning payment systems you can have safe and sound banks and still have lots of people living in poverty so what is the interest of central bank in a subject it's hard I mean it's hard to deal with it because it's not within your mandate. And that of course raises the perennial issue of how to deal with these types of issues because given that people do understand that you can you produce money in the central bank then from time to time others want to use your money for all sorts of purposes that they feel are sort of good for society as a whole but still you need to find some way or some way of drawing the line because if you get involved in everything and then eventually you don't know what you're doing anymore and there are so many nice things that you could can do but you need to stay within your within your mandate but what you can do is. Talk to others about what you as a central banker think is good for society as a whole despite not being part of your mandate. You know Chris one of the things about Central Bank moderate and mudded and the weight is written in the Constitution is that there shall be a central for example in Kenya we will devise a constitution I think 2 bills and then there shall be a central bank which formulates mentor of course but if you're going to and then the rest of it is be with you go to the Act This is there will be all those functions and that very end of it is that he has to support government development agenda which is so broad. But any cause to question about I believe that financial inclusion or so what is sustainable but you see the way you push that to that and where you have sustainable poverty reduction is actually assuming that our other institutions will be a pretty apart and that's one aspect and I think from recent studies including even what I think. Was presented is that about women in banking because I personally have seen that women can actually even save and invest in production that cannot be encroached but that that's one of the one side of the story and we cannot actually have this attribution to the central bank but you know that it is started and. Ignited the process and I Stephens can take all. But there one when you come to the general aspect of mantra policy and especially in countries where we come from ourselves mantra put is actual can affect relative price movements and obviously it's going to be very critical in terms of public policy public policy being duction poverty reduction and the other function in developing countries that we worry about inevitable to what is in the in the news in the newspapers every morning is the currency movement which actually related to your foreign exchange management and the movement the currency is moving and I gave an example today that if your currency moves by 10 percent when I could get a commission of a commission of inquiry in the parliament I have had so many myself you know because essentially you need to explain to us why the currency moved by 10 percent what is happening here why is a currency more important from the politician is national pride that your currency is strong but we always tell them that is bad but you do not get it through them you can try. But there are aspects of it is that the general case is that it actually leads to relative price changes which is massive it can they are they will be ruthless and again so in a sense is a whole debate of what is development here and what is the attribution to the Central Bank but they are direct they are direct functions of the central but they also are in direct that we can in principle some way. This. Sort of. If you lose price stability the poor will lose the most because they are the last ones to understand what is going on there have nowhere to run. All the wealthy people and the well educated people they know exactly what to do and where to go and depending on in what part of the world you happen to be located some of them go to Miami others go to other places but the poor have no choice they will lose everything particularly if you end up with hyperinflation and that's why it's so when credibly important to try as best as you can stick to monitor stability because that is definitely a good thing for the poor Thank you Michel you know that our time to us but thank you and Adrian on your team for an amazing conference just building on something and I'm trying to wrap my head around so both of you governors talked about how lonely the job is all about every thing that you do in terms of coronation. There's a lot of myopia out there like you yourselves talked about some of your brightest economists and everyone and you see it in all kinds of sectors do we really have the ability to chew gum and walk at the same time so for example every time there's a global financial crisis so many people are thrown back into poverty so many people we're trying to help middle class is the poor and obviously financial inclusion something we absolutely have to go forward on and I central bankers are becoming more involved and more politicians want to have their hands in the cookie jar What is the risk for central bankers to be able to balance those 2 in the critical times. If you're a central banker or a bank supervisors to put your job this is a no and that's hard to do always. I think and. I personally my experience is that we develop on a very tight rope here we talked about mantra policy but when it comes to that woman to proceed in example some economists where I've come from the Horn of Africa. Which is ravaged by. Weather weather with a sigh course most of the information will be surprised. It's a surprise id issue but you don't have instruments for months reported for the surprises and the the worst bit of it is that when I talk about Horn of Africa I'm talking about drought and I just prices and sometimes there is always a coincidence that also energy prices globally are also changing you can see that the impact is massive What what is you have to repress nights because you don't have the price I'd instruments to deal with a price I'd information so you have to use the demand side instruments so it means that in the short term if you're lucky you have to plug the economy into a temporary recession until the crisis is over because you only want to prevent prices the shock in prices from becoming apparent to so that is there from becoming permanent to become a producer that after the crisis the price can come back and that is a very very tight issue and we have gone through those I cause actually you have you always to watch we used to watch the month of January February and much because that's where if there will be a. Crisis heating food prices you know you have to start looking at it from there and what what is happening here and there of the day you have different regulators who should have different buffer us so that we create economically Syrians here Central Bank an ornery Keep have one basket as foreign exchange reserves just in case you want to support the market in times of crisis but when there is a drought that's the time you realize that there are no food. Surprising. Where you anticipated and even for reserves going on erast you 21 days and all that our lot and all that fiscal surprise is a dream that we haven't even had in you know own country so you can see what keeps it's at the end of the day who is left hanging on very precarious position is always this and so essentially you know that creates that only ness in that position because you're watching in your chin information that are coming from the Bureau of Statistics and you're asking us what is it happening you're watching every day what is happening to our prices and you're also watching in our own region. The Chris it is actually very much hydro and so when there's that crowd who sees this so those are the issues that come up among other many other institution. So I think we've covered a lot of ground in the last day and a half and even in this last hour or panel it's been a really rich an interesting conversation and I really appreciate not only our panelists for our concluding keynote conversation but all of our panelists and all of our participants in this conference I've learned a lot I think it can really help us push the conversation forward. Help in partnership with the Gates Foundation I really think about the future of central banking and its role in financial inclusion which I think all of us having spent the last day and have here think is pretty pretty critical we look forward to continuing the conversation with you after this day so I hope you don't mind that we're going to repay your kindness in participating today by reaching out to you over the coming months to continue that conversation and continue to push forward with greater. Details and with hopefully a developing vision for how we can push the field forward so please join me in thanking our panelists and thank yourselves as well thank you.