Welcome. My my name is robert. I am an ashirr yacht professor At ford school of policy. I have affiliations with the University of michigan Transportation research Institute. So, welcome today. It's may pleasure to introduce Tower speaker and our lecturer Today on the opportunities and Challenges autonomous vehicles: The roles for government f. This Is sponsored by the center for Local, state policy and the ford School's public policy talk Series. Also, I'd like to thank our Co-sponsors today, which are the Science and technology and Public policy program and the University of michigan Transportation research Institute. So, thank you for all the Sponsors and co-sponsors. Bench ever been are -- we'll Take questions at the end from The audience. So, you will see people who have Index cards. Please write your questions on Those index cards and we'll Start to collect those around Then ask those questions. So, today we have some ford School students who are going to Help ask the questions. So they will help ask the Questions also with support from Christy richardson. So thank You. So let me introduce our Speaker today, Christopher Hart, Who is the former chairman of The national transportation Safety board. He has the honor of being Appointed by two u.S. Presidents By different parties. George bush senior and also President obama -- to serve on The board. Chris is an engineer but also a Lawyer who worked at the federal Aviation administration for Years, at nitsa for years and in Private practice. I had the pleasure of serving -- Being on a panel with him last Year at princeton reunions. We have both princeton Backgrounds. That was a great time. So I figured the ford school Community could benefit from Hearing his sage advice based on His years of experience in his Career. At this point I'd like to Introduce Christopher Hart and Take it away. . Christopher Hart. Good afternoon everyone and Thank you very much robert for That kind introduction. This is an honor to be here and Have a chance to talk to you Guys about something that is Going to be transformative to Everything we do and that is Autonomous vehicles. The specific question is what The role of the governments in This equation. In order to do that I have to Lay the ground work to some of The benefits and challenges of Autonomous vehicles which I will Do. So, thank you for the Opportunity to be here. It is a privilege and honor and I'm going to -- if robert has Anything to say about it, Hopefully I'm going to say Something that you guys enjoy Hearing that will be productive To you. I'm going to talk about the Opportunities, talk about the Aviation mode that's most Advanced in automation. And that's aviation and lessons Learned from them. There are quite a few other Lessons about automation that The carmakers are going to have To address because automation on The ground is much more Challenging and complex than Automation in the air. There's going to be a lot of Other challenges for the car Community that weren't faced and That won't be faced in aviation. Then I will end it up with the Roles of the government. So the opportunities are that Automation has been a huge Success story everywhere that We've seen it at the national Transportation safety board. By the way, let me give a little Background. The ntsb is the investigative Agency for the federal Government. They investigate accidents in All modes of transportation and Come up with findings and Recommendations and the Recommendations are intended to Help prevent recurrences of Those accidents. Let me just emphasize, they are Just recommendations. The ntsb can't require anybody To do anything. Contrary to what the media would Have you think, well when I Receive this letter from the Ntsb that says we recommend such And such -- I emphasize the word "Recommend" -- so I don't have To did it. More than 80 percent of the time The recommendations of the ntsb Are followed because they're Good ideas and if you don't Follow that recommendation then Have an accident because you Didn't then you really have some Explaining to do to the jury After that. So that's really the main Leverage for the ntsb and why More than 80% of the time even Though people don't have to they Still do the recommendation or Something like it to help make Transportation safer. That's what the ntsb does. And they do it in all modes. What really got me interested in The highway mode, because the Ntsb didn't do historically that Many highway accidents, and most Of them that we did were big Vehicles, buses and trucks with Commercial/professional drivers As opposed to joe public with His car. And this one, the one I am going To talk about, which is the Tesla accident in florida in Had seen in my ntsb career that Involved joe public and his car. And we looked at that because of The automation impacts because We had been dealing with Automation for years and years Especially in aviation but also In other modes of Transportation. In aviation automation has shown Amazing safety benefits, Productivity and operating Efficiency, getting more Airplanes through the airspace And reducing pollution at the Same time. I think the car automation Scenario has even more Opportunities for improvement, Especially in safety and many Others. So the question is how do we get From here to there. Because I am a gadget geek. What I say you may think I'm Anti-automation but I'm pro Automation. I am a gadget geek. The question is, how do we get There without hurting too many People in the process. Because the public is already Skeptical of the whole notion of Ought mace, including me. Over time they see an accident, I have to wonder, yet again do We see the car people not paying Attention to the aviation Mistations that have occurred And making the same mistakes Over again which is a shame Because it makes the public even More skeptical. How do we get from here to There? I am convinced we will be there. The estimations of it were Wildly over optimistic. Because it wasn't that long ago That estimates were by 2020 the Streets will be full of Driverless cars. It's 2020 and guess what. That's what I am going to talk About is what the role of the Favorite governments -- federal, State and local -- in helping to Make this happen. Let's look at the lessons Learned in aviation. When they first started Automating in aviation they said Here we have the technology to Do it, let's do it. That led to bad results. So that's when they realized Maybe we ought to focus on human Sent rick automation. Which means developing the Automation around the human. When automation isn't perfect in Cars you need to have graceful Exits. You need to have a graceful exit If the driver is not paying Enough attention. The florida accident is one Where the driver wasn't paying Attention. In addition, you got two big What-ifs. What if it fails and it's not Doing that very much anymore. The automation is very reliable. Number 2, what if it encounters Unanticipated circumstances. Circumstances that weren't Anticipated even by the Designers of the automation. That's when you need graceful Exits. That's when people ask me: how Long before I get on an airliner With no pilot? No time soon. Because until they figure out The what-ifs, what if the Automation fails or encounters An anticipated circumstance, I.E. Sullyly, until that happens We're not going on see airplanes Without pilots. Last but not least another Lesson is when you have a system That's very reliable and you ask A human to be a monitor for that System, that doesn't work very Well. Human-centric, as I said Automation became with because We have the technology do it. Now they're human centric and The carmakers are trying to but The ongoing crashes reveal they Need to do better human-centrif. To me the word auto pilot is a Huge mistake. I am a pilot and I know when the Auto pilot is on I'm still Important. I am not going to go to sleep. What joe and susie public hear Auto pilot they don't know that. Auto pilot gives the impression I will do this and I am not Necessarily here. When the systems are very good Then if your system is really Good you are going to encourage The driver to disengage. Example is I recently got a Volvo and my volvo has lane Keeping assist. So the assist is kind of a Little sloppy so it will drift To one side and hit that line. By the time you do that a few Times that is annoying so you Hold the steering wheel so you Don't do the back and forth. Tesla has tight gains so you Don't do the back and forth. And that engages the driver to Disengage. To me that's another failure to Learn from aviation automation. Another one is what's the Graceful exit if the driver is Not attentive. The two I've seen is, turn the Automation off and stop the car In the road. I am not satisfied with that Because what if the person has a Medical event and you turn it Off now you are asking for a Crash. And stopping the car on the Road, you can't tell you how Were of many crashes we've seen Because of stopping on the Interstate. The one you might remember was The one on the jersey turnpike Where there was a construction Cue stop and the walmart truck Ranked into the construction cue And killed tracy morgan's buddy And seriously injured tracy Morgan. Usually you have two miles of Signs, warning, construction Ahead, et cetera. If a car just stops -- and still You had the truck coming in at Highway speed. If you don't have those two Signs, what are we going to see For people stopping on the road Because most of the systems Today say don't use them except On interstate highways. Well if you use it on interstate Highway and the car stops in the Highway that's pretty much Asking for an accident. So, to me we're not ready Because we don't have a graceful Exit for drivers inattention. If the automation is not User-friendly, and much isn't, Then it can be used improperly Or distract the driver. What is that chime I am hearing? You are looking for the crash Then you run into something Because you weren't looking at What's in front of you. None of those are desirable Outcomes. What about automation being Uncertain because the lane Markings after the sand and Salt, that's going to wear them Down. What happens when the lane Markings become not so good or In my car, again, with the lane Keeping assist, when you come to The exit, then the right lane Now die verges from the traffic And the car starts to follow That until it rights I don't Want to do that so that's just Another example of what about Uncertainty because of the Markings or because of the Streets are slippery. What's the story on will the car Affect its stopping distance Algorithm. What about unanticipated Circumstances like an object in The road. I'll be talking about tempe, Arizona where that happened. What if the system is uncertain. Does it warn the driver in Enough time for the driver to Take over and handle the Situation? So here's williston, florida, That I talked about. This is where a tractor-trailer Opposite direction was turning Left at an intersection on a High-speed road but it was not An interstate it had occasional Intersections. The tesla submarined under the Trailer and, of course, it Decapitated the driver by Sheering off the top of the car. Marks. This is one where the driver had Been bragging about I got my Auto pilot so while it's driving I'm playing sudoku. Well the owner's manual, tesla's Said, that shouldn't have Happened because the owner's Manual says only use it on Highways and limited access Roads. Well two problems with that. One is, I think this was a Highway. To me the person was following The manual. Number 2, who reads the owner's Manual? I read it twice a year. Daylight savings time starts and Daylight savings time stops, how Do I change the clock. These days you don't even have To do that because the clock Changes itself. So much for the Two times a year when I look at The owner's manual. So the point is tesla was over Relying on the driver looking at The owner's manual and the Driver was over reliant on Tesla's ability to develop Automation that didn't need him. As you can see it barely touched The truck but the driver was Killed by sheering off the top Of the car. Here is another one, and this Happened to me in a regular car Where I'm behind a car and the Car suddenly moves out of the Lane and I realize they moved Out of the lane because there Was an obstacle in front of that Car. I am thinking I was lucky I Could move out. If someone had been besides me I Would have run into the object In front of us. The tesla was behind a car in The left lane, there was a fire Truck in the left lane dealing With an accident. The car moves to get out of the Fire truck and the tesla Continues on and crashes into The fire truck. This is one I think I may have To update this slide. I think the ntsb may have Completed the investigation. I'll have to see. But the point is this was one Where once again the auto pilot Was not up to the task and you Need the driver to do the job. Here is where I was looking for A situation where the automation Failed -- and that is very rare Because the systems are reliable These days -- I couldn't find Any in aviation. I had to look to the subway System in d.C. To find a Situation with automation actual Failure. This is one where the trains are Registered on the system Electronically and occasionally For reasons we didn't know Before the accident the Electronic signature disappears And when the electronic Signature disappears we know in The main dispatch board that Shows where all the trains are. When it disappears they get a Warning at the dispatch board. We asked them what do you do With that? They said nothing because we get That warning 500 times a day. So that's not very useful. Guess who didn't get the Warning? The train behind the train that Stopped because this train that Disappeared had stopped and the Train behind it didn't get the Warning so the train is saying The track is empty we'll Accelerate to full speed. So that's what the train was Doing when it rounded the curve. That's what limited the sight Distance of the operator. As soon as he saw the train Stopped on the curb, hit the Emergency brake but it was too Late and it killed her and eight Passengers. So if the automation fails and It doesn't warn the operator in Time, you got a huge problem. And that's one of the issues for Car automation. When it's uncertain or fails, Does it warn the driver in time To let the driver be able to Salvage the situation? Then there's what I say happens Much, much more often. I could give you 15 to 20 Aviation accidents involving Unanticipated circumstances. But this is sort of the really Example of how even aviation After automating for decades Doesn't have it totally figured Out. So this was air france from rio To paris. As most flights are from north And south america to europe it Was a red eye at night. They're taking off and go to And they're near thunderstorms. As soon as they reach cruise Altitude the chief pilot who was The most experienced on board Goes back to take a scheduled Rest break. So, question number one is: was That a good time to take a Scheduled rest break when you Saw on the radar there were Thunderstorms 80 to 100 miles Ahead of you. Here's all this super cooled Water because of all these Thunderstorms out there and the Airplane has what's called a Peto tube which sticks forward And has a hole in the front. The purpose of the hole is the Air goes in and the airplane Knows how fast it's going by how Hard air is coming in. You want to make sure the hole Doesn't freeze over because then No air comes in and the plane Has no clue how fast it's going. To prevent that from happens you Have heaters on the peto tubes. Well a couple of times this Particular type of airplane had The heaters overwhelmed by the Super cooled water and it froze Over the tubes and the pilots Pulled out of the situation Successfully. They figured we probably need Better heaters on the peto tube. Number 2, they pulled out okay So it's probably not an Emergency. We'll just do it the next time This airplane has regularly Scheduled maintenance which this Plane was scheduled to do in the Next two or three weeks. So, now when the ice blocks the Peto tubes and the airplane Doesn't know how fast it's going There are lots of systems that Don't operate if they don't know How fast it is going. For example, the automatic Pilot, throttle, it won't Operate. The protection against stall Won't operate. So, there's lots of systems. What the pilots would have Gotten are a bunch of air Messages that you have lost your Airspeed information but they Would also have eight or six Messages of the systems that Quit because they don't have the Airspeed information. So the pilots responded Inappropriately and ended up Crashing. In that one, we looked at the Totality of the circumstances as We always do. When I say "We" not the ntsb Because we weren't in charge the French aeration of the ntsb was In charge. But did the pilots ever have Training about what happens when You lose air information in Cruise. No. They never had training about That. Did they have training about Flying manually at cruise Altitude? Most of the time they don't. Most of the time it's illegal to Fly manually at cruise altitude Because back in the old days They use to have 2,000 feet Between option direction Traffic. When they needed more highways In the sky they reduced to that The designer of that system said Away. There's too much of an Opportunity of a mid-air Collision because 1,000 feet, I Don't trust humans to to do that Successfully so I require you be On automation. Anything above 29,000 feet you Have to be on automation. That's why they never had Training about how to fly at Cruise altitude and it is a very Different airplane. Have they recovered from a stall At cruise altaltitude? Definitely not. So they hadn't had that. Plus they weren't talking to Each other. So, as soon as the airplane lost The airspeed information the Right side pilot yanks back his Side stick which causes the Airplane to start to climb but He didn't talk to the left side Pilot to tell the pilot what he Was doing and another link in The chain is if this had been a Boeing airplane, and I am not Slamming airbus, but this is the Difference. If it was a boeing airplane Where you have a control yolk Between your legs if the Right-side pilot pulled it back To his belly it would be in my Belly too because they are Connected. But when you move the slide Stick the left side slide stick Didn't move. So, he had no clue. They weren't talking to each Other to make sure they're on The same page. Bottom line, they responded Inappropriately and crashed. So this was just a poster child Example of how whole system not Having their hands fully around Automation. So, those are some of the Challenges that the car industry Is going to have to pay Attention to that aviation has Faced. There's a whole bunch of others And to save time for answering Questions I won't governor these In detail but I am going to over Them a few words. Artificial intelligence, learns With experience, drivers not Trains, street testing Essential. I'm going to talk about how These are additional problems. Automation on the ground is much More challenging than automation In the air. Then I'll talk about what roles The government is going to play In all these situations. Automation that learns. Doesn't happen in aviation Because whenever the aviation Changes in aviation you have to Retrain the pilots to the new Automation. That's one of the questions That's come up in this 737 Situation which I am also Working on. So, in aviation, if the Automation changes enough, they Have to retrain the pilots. Once the automation is in place It's locked down and that's what They train the pilots to do. And the pilot do's that until The automation is changed again And then it's locked down. There's no artificial Intelligence or learning in Process while the automation is Working. So that's going to -- to have That automation that changes so When you come out to your car The next morning and then you Get the word there was a Software upgrade you wonder if I Am going to be able to handle This car the way it behaves now Versus yesterday when I left it And how much training is there Of drivers? Zero. So, there's not going to be any Training of drivers. That's going to be a huge Challenge. And that means when the Automakers change the automation They have to assume two things. One is there won't be any Training because that is never Going to happen. Number two is that the owner Won't read the owner's manual And, of course, the change from Last night wouldn't be in your Manual anyway. You have to assume the worst Case that how driver friendly is This for the driver to respond To this new change in Automation. So that's an example of an issue They're going to face on the Ground they don't face in the Air. Airline pilots train and retrain Regularly. It doesn't happen in cars. So That means designers of Automation have to assume worst Case. Drivers don't have training and Won't look at the owner's Manual. So the possible outcome. You turn the automation off and Lose the protection. And, b, you become distractioned Then you have a crash because You are distracted. The question for the auto Dealers is -- and I gave this Presentation to the dealers Once -- I said today the dealer Will just hand you the key. Is this going to change that Liability scenario so they have To not only give you the key but Train to you some extent about How to use the car. I am not just talking about Pointing you to a website but Training you about how the car Works. So, stay tuned on whether that's Going to change. How many people in the auto Showroom do you know of that Substantively familiar enough With the car to train you? So that would be a whole Different experience going to an Auto dealer and having someone Trained enough to tell you how It works. This is one you will be Interested in because you got The m city, which is your test Track, but what we're finding Big time is actual street Testing is essential. No matter how much test track or Lab testing you do, actual Driving on the streets is Essential to make a car street Ready. So that's going to be a big Challenge. The reason that is a big Challenge is because it raises The essential conundrum assuming You are a responsible enough Manufacture that you do test Track training and lab training Before you put your car on the Streets that means you have a Reliable car. Now the conundrum is what I said About aviation. That humans are not good Monitors of reliable systems and That's what happened in tifty. If it's not sure what's going On, it needs to warn you in a Timely manner. Also it needs better monitor Training. To tell the monitors this is a Scenario that humans don't do Very well. Namely monitoring reliable Systems. And here is how we're going to Train you. So, tempe, arizona was a Driverless street test with the Monitor. You have seen the youtube where The monitor was looking down at The moment. To the woman was walking across The street at night not in a Crosswalk. I think the ntsb investigation Of this one might be completed As well. But this was the first fatality Of a pedestrian from a, quote, Driverless vehicle. This is one again where the Driver wasn't paying adequate Attention. But look at the way this works. It doesn't matter what the Driver was looking at. The driver could be distracted By a whole bunch of things many Of which are legitimate Distractions. I could be Looking at the street sign or The rearview mirror. I did have an accident where I Was looking in the mirror and The guy in front of me stopped At that moment and I crashed. So, there's no way that even With a driver that's not Distracted by things they Shouldn't be distracted by like Their ipad or iphone, there's Still no guarantee the driver is Going to be 100 percent percent Of the time looking out. That's why this accident was Pretty much inevitable. With all the street testing Going on that accident was Pretty much inevitable. I was engaged by the law firm That was asked after this group Uber stopped testing and they Engaged a law firm to get them Back on the streets and the law Firm asked me to help them. I that have started on the Streets in pittsburgh. They did start back on the Streets. But the point was that this is An example where it was Inevitable with all the testing Going on there way is going to Be a moment in time when the Person was not looking out at The moment they needed to be. There was an structure issue Because the sidewalk didn't Have -- it stopped at the street And didn't have a crosswalk. So this woman was walking on the Sidewalk then crossed the Street. By the way she was high but That's something neither here or There. So, there was a lot of criticism About how come uber turned off The volvo driver alert system to Keep collisions from happening. The reason they did is because They wanted to invent a system That would work on any car not Just top of the volvo system. So they disabled the volvo System to detect objects and Stop in time. This is another example of Whereas we try to figure out how To do this better, there's going To be chanllenges. This is people trying to do what The think is right in that Moment but this is going to Maker take, again, better Warning of uncertainty and Training of the monitors to say We're asking to you do what we Know humans don't do very well Which is monitor reliable Systems. Graceful exits, as I mentionth You got to have graceful exits If the automation fails or Encounters unanticipated Circumstances. That's important when you have Drivers in the car. If you take the driver out of The car it's crucial. It's not just important it's Essential. Graceful exit. This is like I say when people Ask how long before I get on an Airliner with no pilot, the joke About the airliner in the future Is you look up front and there Will be a pilot and a dog and The pilot's job is to feed the Dog. The dog's job is to bite the Pilot if he touches anything. Here's one where both engines Ingested birds. Pilots were unable to reach the Airport so they landed in the River. What would automation have done In that situation? When I talk to aeronautical Crowds they tell them there was Actually automation undermined This situation. Because this was one where sully Tried to do asr as soft and La ing as possible by flaring Just before he hit the water to Minimize the vertical impact Speed of the airplane on the Water. The automation that was on at The time which is called a fugue Odd damper, kept him from Pulling the nose up as much as He wanted to, stopped him from Pulling the last Three-and-a-half degrees of nose Up which caused him to hit the Water harder than he anticipated Which breaches the bottom of the Fus Fuselage. So, question was, if that Automation had not stopped him From doing that -- by the way This is automation he had no Clue of and he was very upset When he found out there was Automation that kept you from Flaring as softly as you wanted To, he was very upset as any Professional would be. Because any professional wants To know what does the airplane Do, what are the capabilities of This automation. What does it do and not do. So, he hit the water much harder Than he intended to. That was one where automation Undermined the outcome that he Wanted. Mixing driverless with humans. Again, very challenging because Of the lack of variability of The humans out there. So, even if you design a Driverless car, you have to Consider the other humans in the System like the pedestrians, Bicyclist and the motorcyclists And people who you know who you Will take this steering wheel Out of my cold dead hand, it's Much more challenging to mix Automation with humans than just To have straight automation. Software updates. That's what I said about are you Going to be able to handle the Difference of behavior in core Car the next morning. Look at how thoroughly complex Software is tested for Unintended circumstances. Sometimes I wonder with the Frequency of these updates how Thorough is that testing to see If there are any consequences From adding the new software to The existing system. I have a feelings there not Adequate testing of that before They bring the new systems in to Place. Aviation system designers figure Out when they change the Software they've figured out by Bringing pilots in to fly they Just don't rely on human factors They bring the pilots in to fly In the simulator before it goes Out to service. That's not so easy in cars ba us The simulators aren't as good And there's a much greater Variability of drivers. So that's going to be much more Challenging in cars than it is With airplanes. Cyber protection. That one really worries me Because I don't see much about It with manufactures. I see a lot of academia interest In it like here, but that's kind Of scary because not only do you Have to be protected against Today's cyber invasion protocols But today's cyber invasion Protocols are ever advancing so It's got to be a continuous Thing am you have to get better Against the advancing protocols. And I'm concerned I don't see How well that is happening. Not only that, but every time You add additional protections To your software to protect it From cyber attacks, then you got To, again, just as with any Other software change you got to Look at the unintended Consequences of the change. So, I'm very concerned that Inadequate attention is being Paid to the whole area of cyber Protection. This is an interesting one. Competition regarding safety. Airlines don't complete on Safety. They have a cultural aspect that Not very many industries have. That is, anybody's crash is Everybody's crash. So, when public sees an air Plane crash, they don't say that Airplane was airline x and I'm Not worried because I am going On airline y. They say wait a minute that was A german airplane in that Crashed in the french alps -- That was a suicide by the way -- But they go I'm worried because I'm flying to pittsburgh. The only other industry that is Like that big time is the Nuclear power energy. They are very much that way. Anybody's accident is Everybody's accident. So the air lines don't compete On safety. That's why you never see an ad That says we are the safest Airline out there. They scratch each other's back. Not only do I not want to crash Myself I don't want roberts Airplanes to crash either. Anybody's crash is everybody's Crash. On the other hand, the Automakers compete on safety. So, me that's good. To the extent you buy the car With the five instead of four Stars, that helps safety Innovations penetrate the fleet Faster. I'm not sure it would a good Idea to transfer that model from The aviation system to the car System and say you shouldn't Complete on safety. The trick is how do you take Advantage of the fact that it Penetrates the fleet faster when It's got five stars and still Have opportunities for the Safety messages to be Transmitted to everybody so Everybody knows how that works. So that's a challenge. I think there's a way to take Advantage of that safety benefit Without reducing that system That now helps safety Implementations penetrate the Fleet faster. We don't see any ethical issues In any of the automation in any Other mode before today. The example I've often used is You are going along in your lane Fat, dumb and happy and for Reasons that don't matter There's an 80,000 truck coming At you. So what is your automation going To do? Take you and into the truck to Protect the pedestrians or take Out the pedestrians to protect You? That's the kind of issue that I Don't think should be decided After the fact. I think we need to have serious Discussion. But I don't see any talk about Ethics except possibly in Academia. The sooner you put ethic issues Into the system the better. It's just like safety. If you put it on after the fact Its ace not as efficient and Effective. I think the same is true with Ethical protections. How are we Going to address the ethical Issues faced by this automation Mode? I don't have a good answer Except I think the feds need to Get seriously involved in this One. So, let's look at some of the Roles of the government. I am going to start with the Federal government because I Think it's very important for Nitsa to stand up to this Challenge which they're not Doing now because they're in a Regulatory regime that says if You want one new regulation you Got to get rid of two old Regulations. That is a pretty arbitrary Guideline and puts a constraint On what they can do. I think it's important for two Reasons to have the feds get in Charge. One because you don't want Different requirements in each State with a patchwork quilt of Requirements from state to State. The other is the fact there are Lots of countries involved. This is a worldwide issue. Japan, germany, sweden and korea And all the countries that make Cars need to be engaged in this As well. Who is that going to be with? Not with the state of michigan But with the federal government. They need to be engaged to Effectively do that. So I think there's a huge Opportunity, a huge requirement Need for the federal government To become more engaged in this Endeavor and I don't see it with Today's federal government. Let's move to the state and Local governmentish yous. If the feds -- to the extent the Feds don't establish the Requirements, the states will Have to do it. What about licensing Requirements? Which the states have done. What kind of license are you Going to need for a driverless Car? What about hands the wheel? Do you have to have hands on the Wheel. Some states say yes and some Don't. About the requirements having a Steering wheel or brakes? What about the infrastructure? How much is that going to be? What do the states and cities do Regarding the infrastructure? Are we still going to have Traffic signals, lines on the Streets? What about street signage in General? What about street parking? Predictions are there's going to Be fewer cars because we're Going to move to a system where People won't own cars but They'll beckon cars. That means instead of being used One or two hours a day like your Car is they are being used much More which means you are not Going to have -- you are going To have a lot fewer cars. And you are probably not going To own your own car because it's Not worth it for you to put all The fixed costs in to buying an Asset that's going to be parked So, there's a whole lot of Changes. But garages what about the Revenue the cities and state get From the parking garages? Should there be dedicated lanes For av's. How about bicyclists and Pedestrians, should they be Segregated? There's a lot of issues they Have to address. What about the revenue from auto Registration with fewer autos? What about the fuel tax because If cars are going electric What's that going to do to fuel Taxes? To all the revenues the cities Get from parking and moving Violations? What about parking lot taxes? I mean, there are so many issues That nobody really has the Answer to because this is going To be so transformative until we Get some idea what direction This is taking it's going to be Very difficult for the states And cities to respond in a way That helps to compliment these Changes because we don't know Yet what direction the changes Are going to take. What about resources? Will the need as many traffic Police? Will they need as many ambulance Services? What about infrastructure Maintenance? All these issues -- what about Slippery streets? Again the automation today is Not able to handle slippery Streets. Here's one that is not a state Or local government issue but What about organ donors? If we are not killing 100 people A day like we are today, what's That going to do to the organ Donor situation? Stay tuned. So, automation offers lots and Lots of potential benefits and I Am a big fan of automation and It's going -- not only the lives Saved but so many other benefits But there are lots of Challenges. First the auto world needs to Pay attention to the aviation World which has been automated For decade. It is a shame every time we see A lesson learned that's not Followed by the auto industry And they make the skeptical Public even more skeptical. Not only do they have those Issues but a whole bunch of Issues because automation on the Ground is much more challenging And complex than in the air. There are a bunch of issues the Auto world will have to deal With. Anticipate big changes for Everybody. This will be transformative. If you tried to predict ten Years ago you'll the things your Iphone will do now you would Probably be way off. Nobody -- I've seen so many Predictions on how this is going To look that nobody is really Ready, none of the states and Local governments are ready to Put veer use infrastructure Changes in place because nobody Knows which way this is going to Go. Thanks again for the opportunity To come and talk. This has been fascinating and I Look forward to the questions That you might have. Thank you very much. [applause] moderator: thanks, everyone. Now we have questions. So, our illustrious ford school Panelists will ask those Questions. Also, we can take questions via Twitter, the hashtag #policy Talks. thank you so much for your Time. I am a second year mba focused On emerging tech regulation. Interested in the disruption Happening in the auto industry. So, really excited to hear you Speak today. The first question here is: are The auto companies aware of the Lessons you have described? Christopher Hart: that's a Real good question. I don't see them following it But there's no secret. These are in the public domain. It's not like they have to find Somebody who is going to shoot Them if they tell them these Secrets. This is out there in the public. If they are aware of it, I'm not Seeing it because to the kent They are making the same Mistakes over again. Either they're not aware or They're not paying attention Because they think that's Aviation and it's not Applicable. are they invested in learning From these lessons? What do you expect from the Future as you talk about the Changes we should expect. Christopher Hart: I'm hoping If I give this presentation in Enough places I'll capture Attention to make them realize There's lots of history for Automation history development In aviation and they need to pay More attention to the history. thank you. I am a second year at the ford School and the co-chair of Mobility policy lab, a student Organization focused on growing Discussion of mobility and Transportation policy here at Ford and across campus. We have several questions about States. I'm going to try to condense Them into one. What challenges do you see in Lieu of unified federal Regulation about competition Between states in developing Smart policies? Where are the potential fault Lines, where are the incentives, The drivers that could produce Error and other challenges? Christopher Hart: the best I Can say on that since I am not Invested in this industry Because most of my work was Aviation based, so I'm just Hoping that the states are Talking to each other. I don't know if there's a trade Association they can work Through. But they're talking to each Other so that will create some Level of harmony between the States. So, I don't know how much that's Happening. I just hope it is. Because to me, 50 different Answers not going to be a good Solution. do you think that the states Currently have the appropriate Resources to be able to handle Such complex systems in a way That both ensures safety in Consistency but also meets the Policy outcomes that states are Interested? without knowing what kind of Changes they need to make and, Therefore, we don't know whether Some of the changes are going to Reduce expenses here and just What the nature of those changes Are going to be, that's very Difficult to know at this early Stage. It's going to be -- an Interactive situation where the States and local governments do Is going to depend on the Carmakers do and vice versa. So it's very difficult to Predict where that's going to Go. I'm sorry not to have the answer But this is so transformative That I think it's going to be Much bigger than not just having Parking on the street but a much Bigger change than that. so switching gears a little. Ha ha. Okay. No? [laughter] Sorry. Christopher Hart: electronic Cars won't have gears that's probably why nobody Laughed. The chris ler's 3,002,020 model Has no printed owner's manual And it's on the app console. How can a car built that way Adapt to being an autonomous Vehicle. Christopher Hart: well the Cars that do have manuals nobody Reads them anyway. But I wonder -- ask me again the Question. I'm not sure if I understood. it's basically the crux is How does a car built that way, That is basic with no printed Owner's manual, so Technologically advanced how Does it adapt to being an Autonomous vehicle. I think the crux is whether it's An iter active process within The software or how that might Change in the future. the only thing I can say is The way the owner's manual is is Probably ill rear vanity because Nobody looks at it anyway. If it's electronic owner's Manual they can adapt as the car Is adaptsing and that's a good Sign. But to the extent nobody reads It. we have a slough of questions About insurance. Could you discuss briefly what Role insurance companies will Play in an av future and also, You know, how does the existing Insurance system as it's Currently construed form a Barrier to the adoption of Emerging autonomous vehicles. well the lawyers are going to Have a field day with this Because they're going to try to Figure out who is responsible For this crash? The driver or is that the Machine or is it the Infrastructure or just who is Really responsible for this Crash. And for a while the attorneys Are going to have a field day. I am an attorney so I am Familiar with that. How the dust is going to set ole That, I don't know. I have to think the manufactures Are going to play a much bigger Role in liability because They're designing the software. So the drivers may still be Engaged but to the extent you Take the drivers out of it, that Inherently reduces the potential Liability of the drivers and Increases liability on the Automakers and infrastructure Designer. So that's going to be a tough One to predict. Stay tuned because that's so Transformative it's hard to know Today what direction that will Take. Sorry not to have anymore c Cron -- concrete answers but I Think that's inherent in the Aspect of this being a Transformative technology. so our next question is: how Do you feel about an incremental Approach to implementation? So basically starting with Smaller tasks and then moving on Up? Do you think that's a good Approach in this newer era? well that's an interesting Question. There are huge debates. There's two not so parallel Champs. Some say let's do baby steps. Some say let's jump all the way To the ultimate conclusion. I don't think anybody is ready To jump to the ultimate Conclusion because I don't think Anybody is ready for a Driverless car for prime time. So the question is: as you go Baby step at a time, what the Aviation world is finding out is The closer you get to full Automation, the more challenging The human factors become. The closer you get to complete Driverless situation the more Challenging the human factorish Yous are. And one of them is what I Mentioned. Humans are not good monitors of Reliable systems. The more reliable the systems Get, the more challenging it is To keep the pilots engaged. You are hearing today about Pilots who aren't engaged enough So they lose their basic skills. In 447 they didn't have the Basic skills how to fly at Cruise altitude because they Relied on the automation. There are pros and cons. I don't think anybody is ready For a leap to full automation. But, on the other hand, as they Take the baby steps toward it, The closer the steps are to Removing the human the more Challenging the conditions. I prefer baby step becausey Think anybody is ready for Prime time. The theory is simple. Most of this is human error. Nitsa says 96% of the accidents Are human era. To remove the human and you Remove the human era. Well that sounds good but that's Over simplistic. It's not going to be that Simple. We will have to do it in Measured steps. And I think the feds need to Play a role in every one of Those steps as opposed to just Letting it happen. I mean, in terms of creating Constraints but I think the feds Need to be on top of it so they Can play the active role they Need to play not only in the U.S. But in the worldwide Community. could you provide any new Lessons learned that would come From the investigations into the Downing of the two boeing 747 Max plane as they relate to av Adoption? I'm not sure how much these Are related to av but I can just Tell you the big picture view of The certification process, That's what I worked on was the Certification process for the The big picture view is the System for improving airplanes Has worked very well for decades And that's reflected by the Exemplary safety record that Aviation has of going for almost Ten years and nine or ten Billion passengers without a Single passenger fatality. That's an amazing Accomplishment. So a foundation of that Accomplishment is a very good, Very safe airplane. The foundation for a very safe Airplane is a very safe system For certifying the planes. What We found was the system worked Well. But what it needs to do because Airplanes are getting ever more Complex, as the airplanes get More complexed the system needs To be revisited because these Two tragic crashes show the System is still letting things Fall between the cracks and they Need to upgrade the good system To make it better. By the way this is not an Faa/boeing issue, this is a Worldwide issue for all Governments. I give kudos to the faa for Studying this with a worldwide Group of certification experts From basically every certifying Authority in the world except Russia to come together, them Plus nasa, and I was asked to Lead that effort. It's called the joint Authorities technical review. I was asked to lead that effort. We came up with recommendations To the faa that we gave them Last october about how to bring The system up to date so it can Respond more effect lively to Today's reality of complex Airplanes. Arm ape not sure there are Lessons learned for the aviation World except you can say the More complex the vehicles become The more sophisticated the Regulation method has to be to Respond to that new complexity. the next question we have is Asking: who do you think should Participate in decisions of Ethics as resulted to automated Vehicles? To what extent should citizen Expertise be valued by Technologists and wreck Regulators. I think it needs to be led by The feds but needs strong input From academia and the driver Community as well. So I think all of those need to Be in this picture. I'm not sure exactly how that Would work and whether there's Any mechanism to do that but I Think it needs to start with the Feds and I think academia like You guys, because I've seen Ethics work going on in many of The universities and I think They need to be involved with It. And by the way not just u.S. But World wide. So, I don't know of any Mechanism today to do that and Not only get input from academia But from the driver public. That's one of the things from The driver public is the quality Of drivers is very -- that's a Very big bell curve. So, trying to sort of get a Representative am sample is a Challenge. in speaking with your Experience with the ntsb, can You talk about these Stakeholders that you involved When you were going through your Decision making process or your Recommendation process? I think that would be helpful For us to get more context. sure. The way the ntsb works is the Party system. When they're investigating a big Airline crash we have what's Called the party system. Everybody who has a dog in the Fight is involved in the Investigation. The airline, the pilot's union, The air traffic control, the Airports, the engine designers, The mechanics, flight Attendants, everybody who has a Dog in the fight would be Parties. The reason for the parties is Because they have technical Knowledge that the ntsb wouldn't Have. So if we're looking for what's This piece of metal in the Middle of the field, ntsb would Have no idea. But the person from boeing would Say I know exactly what that Piece is. Or if we talk about how do the Pilots usually behave. The ntsb wouldn't have any Notion of how the pilots would Behave but we could ask the Pilot's union who is involved in The investigation for their Advice on how that works. So the ntsb does it with a Collaborative approach that Includes everybody who has a dog In the fight for the purposes of Gathering facts. Once the factual part is Finished then the ntsb moves to A non-collaborative approach of Developing analysis by itself. So the ntsb puts all the facts On the website so that everybody Can see them and we invite all The parties to snit their Analysis against their facts and We invite the public. But the ultimate analysis is Done solely by the ntsb. So we don't get accuse of saying Boeing unduly influenced that One or american airlines or the Pilot's or whoever unduly Influenced that conclusion and Recommendation. So the analysis is done by the Ntsb but for the factual Development it's -- it includes All the parties because they've The technical capability that The ntsb doesn't have. a similar question kind of Building on the complexity idea. So, regulators are currently Faced with highly complex Systems in passenger vehicles. Recently several unintended Acceleration cases have come Before nitsa and were Essentially ruled to be Unknowable do to the complexity Of software. What ramifications does this Have for even more complex av Systems? How will regulators respond in The cases of crashes that Involve proprietary systems or Systems that are unknowable in Their complexity? well thank you for that Question. The good news is that cars are Becoming more like airplanes and They're having more like Recorders on the cars that tell Us what happen. So if we wanted to see from the Recorder whether anybody was -- Today most of the cars, if you Start them you have to have your Foot on the brake for them to Start so you don't have that Problem. But the cars would have Recorders that would show what Was the position of the brake, What was the position of the Accelerator at the time. All those kinds of questions. And might even have voice Recording to hear what's going On. The noises in the car. So the good news is that the Cars are more and more having This kind of recording Capability and it's actually not For accident investigation Purposes but so the manufactures Can use that feedback. Because like tesla has Continuous feedback from your Car to the manufacture and they Use that information to their Credit to help improve the Quality of the car. So the good news is that as the Cars become more technological Complex they're going to have More recorders to help people Like investigators figure out What really happened here and The totality of circumstances so We are not guessing as to what The cause was. one thing -- another question I had was: we've talked about Obviously the government's Trying to be prepared ford the Advent of this technology and How oftentimes regulation or Government policy can be Reactive in this space. I'm curious to get your Perspective on how government Regulation or perhaps any future Recommendations could help Address the equity issues Surrounding in safety within Transportation and how you see That to be changing too. the equity issues are a big Hole that I've seen that is not Adequately addressed. Because I'm looking at to the Extent people are going to be Beckoning cars, is that Something that only rich people Can do. Or scenario anybody can do that. That depends on so many Circumstances. For example, I'm -- one of the Models I'm asking where you Beckon the car to take you from Where you are to the mass Transit then you get mass Transit and go the rest of the Way. If that doesn't take you where You are going you might have a Car at the other end. That's one scenario. If it's car all the way to your Destination, which I have Trouble seeing because when they Talk about autonomous cars will Reduce auto congestion, I don't See how many everybody is taking A vehicle to their destination. So what I have not seen in any Of these models is who is Addressing how it's going to Affect people of different Means. And I don't see that happening Yet. And I have no clue where that's Going to go. I think it need to be addressed But the people with less means Don't have as much political Clout to make sure they're Covered by this. We'll have to see where it goes. I'm hoping that people will want To address the totality of Circumstances realizing that if These people of less means can Get to work more easily we all Win. So it's not a subsidy thing it's A we're all in it together Because it's beneficial to all Of us. I don't have a good answer. Again I'm sorry not have a Complete answer but that's what Happens with this very Transformative neck neology. -- technology. these vehicles will be Collecting a lot of location Data and will be reliant in some Instances on that location data To be located in space to be Properly regulated. Also we will have -- there are Certain models for av that Require vehicle to structure Connections which provides even More reams of location data. Could you speak to the privacy Concerns of location data and How this issue is currently Being thought about in the Regulatory community? And how it ties in to other Federal action on personally Identifiable information, data Privacy, and location data? next question please [laughter] That's on the list of issues That haven't been dealt with in Aviation because aviation Doesn't have a privacy issue. Because the things from the Black boxes in aviation Blotching to the airline. So, nobody cab have access to Them unless the airline wants It. So, there wasn't that privacy Issue. So that's an example of an issue That's going to be faced with Autonomous vehicles that is not Currently faced in aviation. It will take some privacy Protections. Even today people are worried That, you know, with the onstar System it will tell where you Are. What if I find out my wife is at Her boyfriend's house. There are lots of privacy issues Associated with that which Haven't been -- I haven't seen Any serious issues to adequately Address those but I am assuming The political oomph will be Enough that privacy protections Will be maintained. It may be they're behind the Technology a little bit but Eventually I will be surprised If they aren't huge privacy Protections to prevent misuse of That information. so we have a question coming From twitter. So, connected to ought maded Vehicles do you have thoughts About urban air mobility? There seems to be a lot of buzz About uber elevate and lots of Technical and regulatory Challenges. So love to hear Your thoughts on this new Developing area. well that's going to be even More interesting than what we're Seeing on the ground. Because not only do they have All the automation issues that We're now seeing in cars, but They have two additional issues. First of which is propulsion. The ones I've seen the geometry Is that the vehicle is Surrounded by vertical lift Fans. So, let's take the scenario Where there's a fan on each Corner. If you lose the fan on one Corner you are no longer Controllable unless that fan is Activated by the other engines. That's the only single example That I know of is the osprey Which is a two engine airplane And it takes off like this and Then the wings go forward and it Flies horizontally. Both of those engines power both Rotors. So, you still got propulsion for Both rotors. If you didn't that would be an Instant crash and catastrophic. Absent some way to maintain that Control. And I'll just use the four Corner example. Because I know all you need is Three to keep control but they Need to be more or lessy Metcally spaced around the Middle. If there's three or four on a Four corner approach that's not Symmetrical. What are they going to do in the Case of propulsion failure. Unlike airplanes which crash Over uninhabited ground these Vehicles spend 100% of their Life over the city. That means they're going to Damage buildings and hurt People. If you remember they used to Have helicopter service from the New york airport to the pan-am Building. One of those crashed -- it just Lot a rotor blade and that Cascades down and hurt a bunch Of people. And that destroyed the whole Service. If you have one of an urban air Mobility vehicle anywhere in the World that's going to seriously Impact. Number two is now you've got low Altitude traffic over a bunch of Vehicles buzzing around and the Faa has no way to control low Altitude traffic. So that's going to need a whole New infrastructure to control The traffic in addition to Having collision avoidance Systems in the vehicles but it's Going to take a whole new Structuring. So the bottom line is just like I thought ten years ago that Predictions of how soon we're Going to have driverless Vehicles on the street, we're Way off. I think the predictions of urban Air mobility vehicles in not so Long a period of time are Unrealistically optimistic. So, they're going to have huge Challenges to face. The one that I said in uber had A big program in d.C. And I sat In this taxi which seats eight People. That means it is a pretty big Device. That means if this thing Crashes, somebody is going to Get hurt. That's going to be even a bigger Challenge. I think the predictions of that Are more unrealistically Optimistic than they are for Cars. we have another question From twitter. Since the u.S. Is the largest Auto market in the world, why Isn't usdot taking broader Leadership? And are there risks involved With abdication on the federal Level to not set the playing Field for av? Is there possibility for other Countries to take the torch and Run with it? there's a big possibility. And that's is why I'm Disappointed to see that nitsa Is not taking a more pronounced Leadership role in addressing This. Because that leaves a vacuum for Other countries to take over. And I think we need to be Reeditsers rather than -- Leaders rather than followers. So I am very concerned about not Seeing nitsa take the lead. I was the active administrator Of nitsa myself 20 years ago. I don't want to speak too Negatively but I am just not Seeing them come up to the plate To take these issues in on Automation. I'm also curious to learn About within the ntsb what new Technologies you have been using In terms of monitoring. Whether you are a proponent of Creating innovation of the Recommendations you develop. sure. And I told people when I took Over chairmanship of the ntsb I Elide to people the ntsb has to Be innovative because the Transportation world is Innovative. If we don't continue improving, We're going to fall behind. So I can't tell you how pleased I was when I visited the 3m Facility in minneapolis and saw The management philosophy in the Has to be innovative. If we're not we're going to fall Behind. Innovative means thinking out of The box which also means you Will make mistakes. That means I am not going to be Hard on you if you make mis Mistakes. It tells me you are trying to Think out of the box and I am Going to praise you and see what You can learn from those Mistakes. To me, that's essential is if The ntsb. One of the things that we Started doing in my tenure was We started using drones to help Us investigate accidents. So, now the drones can go into Buildings where like we had a Collision where the train Crashed into the terminal at the Station and made the building Unsuitable for entry yet we Could take drones in and see What was happen. Or map the debris field with Against on a drone so we -- gps On a drone so we know where all The debris fell then we can have A map to use that later to help Us figure out the dynamics of The crash. So, we've done a lot of -- we're Also doing innovation on how to Use the information better from The flight data recorders and The cockpit voice recorder. So, there's lots of innovation Going on at the ntsb. we're getting a lot of action On twitter today. I have another question about -- A couple of the crashes that you Highlighted. The tesla crash. But maybe more appropriately the Tempe, arizona uber crash Involved private vehicles Operating on the public Right-of-way that were Essentially untested or Technologies that didn't have Third party oversight operate The public right-of-way. What is the current safety net To ensure that the public, the Traveling public can seek Restitution or that local Governments aren't held liable For public use of -- public Operation of these untested Technologies? this is where one of the ways Where I say the feds need to be More engaged. Because without uniform national Guidance on that I think we've Got a problem. It's not only for testing on the Streets but for all these Upgrades that keep going into Your cars. As I said, I wonder how Adequately was that upgrade Tested against the rest of the Software that it's entering? Does that generate unanticipated Consequences with adding that Piece to the software that's Already there? Seems to me the feds need to be In on that as well to make sure That the software that's added Doesn't make the car more Dangerous than it was and to me That's not a state function That's a federal function. So, we're going to have to Figure out a way that before This gets broadcast to your car It's been tested in a way that's Adequate to the feds so they Will be comfortable with this is Safe enough to be on the Streets. But I don't see that happening Today. Maybe it will as this evolves But I'm not aware of it Happening today. to the point of these -- the Data on these crashes, these Recent issues, I'm curious to See what your response is to the Pushback from these companies. From the ubers and eh teslas of The world who believe is the Future of trainings purples. How you -- transportation. How you communicate to the Pushback in this area. if it comes after an accident That's one thing. If it's just generic, that's a Different scenario. There's always going to be Pushback where the industry Thinks we've got this figured Out but they don't. That. So I think that's going to Happen. Buts that where if the feds Don't get into this and play a Role, that's not happening in The way it needs to. So I think that needs, again, Another reason why the feds need To get actively involved in this Arena. You don't want the states doing This individually. You don't want the manufactures Deciding ethical issues. You need the feds in there for Guidance and leadership. we have another question from Twitter. Could you address the carbon-- what's twitter by the way? Just kidding. I do know what twitter is. will automation lead to Reductions in carbon emissions? Or what are the various Scenarios for carbon emissions And other types of pollutants. one is the reduced number of Cars is going to reduce the Pollution. But I think the bigger answer is That automation is going to mean Electric cars for the most part. Because gas powered cars don't Respond to the automation as Well as electric cars do. I've got an electric car so I've Been there, done that. Just to take an example. The purr pulsive efficiency of Gasoline powered cars is less Than 30%. Of electric cars it's more than So, there's a three times Disparity in the pro pulsive Efficiency. So, in terms of how many miles You go for this bit of energy You can do three times more in An pluck car. So the reason the gas star cars Are so far behind because, for Example, they generate so much Heat. Not only does the energy from The heat come from gasoline but Also you need energy from the Gasoline to take care of that Heat and get rid of it with the Fan and the water pump that Moves the water through the Radiator and the fan that blows The heat out. So it generates more heat and It's got to get rid of that. So that's a big reason why it is So much more -- the pro pulsive Efficiency is so much worse for Internal combustible engines. Also they make a lot of noise. When I tell a con veteran Owner -- corvette owner that my Electric car can beat your car Across the intersection because As you know electric motors have Maximum torque at zero. That's why the most powerful Tesla goes from 0-60. I tell my friend my corvette can Beat your car. He says yeah but your car Doesn't make noise. So, there are lots of reasons Why electric cars are far more Efficient than internal Combustible engines. I'm wondering why I'm not Hearing a brew ha ha protest From the petroleum and car Industry when people are Predicting 60 to 70% fewer cars. I don't know why I'm not hearing It. To me there's a huge difference In pollution from -- I mean, What I just told you was a pro Pulsive efficiency. If you want to look at question You got to look from beginning To end and see what the totality Of the energy use is from the Time you get the fuel out of the Ground and carried as gas to the Gas station or carried as Electricity to your car in the Garage. So the real answer would have to Depend on the totality of Circumstances. But I suspect if you look at the Big picture the electric cars Are going to come way ahead on That which means less pollution And more user-friendly and more Sustainable. could you address the Differences in potential Emissions impacts of the variety Of av deployments that you've Discussed. You discussed both a fleet-based Deployment with on demand Service and also the potential For a private model. yeah, again, I think the Electric car is going to be way Ahead on emissions of the fleet. And to the extent the car is Being used continuously instead Of being parked so much of the Time, a lot of the inefficiency Cars is while they're warming Up. If you have less of that you Don't have that concept anymore. So I think the electric cars are Going to be the way of the Future for autonomous vehicles And far better on emissions than Internal combustion engines in The total picture. so this will be our last Question. Av-- I'm having fun you don't have To stop. we can stay after and chat if You are okay with that. Av represents a complex solution To a seemingly simple set of Problems. Are there examples from the Aviation industry that have Stripped complexity rather than Added more complexity that we Can takes a lessons learned Moving into the future? I'm not sure I would describe It as a simple set of problems But certainly aviation as it's Become more automated has become More complex which has increased The challenges. And that's where the jatr went With the recommendations to the Faa. Airplanes are becoming more Complex and the system that Approves the airplanes needs to Be revices and updated to Respond to that increasing Complexity. moderator: well let's thank Chris one more time for coming. [applause] Thank you so much for joining us Here at the ford school. my pleasure. Athreya and taking so many questions. You took a lot of questions. thank you. My pleasure. there's a reception out front Now. Please join us. You can ask him even more Questions if you'd like. So, thank you, everyone, for Attending. thank you.