Manny Teodoro is indeed one of the leading experts in the nation water and sewer system finance and policy as well as a variety of other policy domain whose research focuses on U.S. environmental policy examining the ways in which human capital management practices and political institutions interact around the implementation of federal environmental regulations among other research she does apply policy research water utility finance and management and develop new methods for assessing great equity and affordability is working Salman's private and public utility management as well as public private partnerships and to conduct analysis of racial ethnic and income disparity and environmental compliance and Forstmann doctor tomorrow is associate professor of political science and director of policy and politics program at Texas A and M. University and we're proud to know that he received his Ph D. in political science from University Michigan in 2000. So with that brief introduction now turned over to Professor Theodore Thanks a lot Tom us this is a real delight to be with you virtually if not literally this morning I understand we had a we had to improvise a little bit given the plunge in temperatures a good it's in the style Jik coming back to Ann Arbor but also a reminder that sometimes it's pleasant to live in Texas. Have to at least observe the the weather pattern because this happened today is near and dear to me a water board ability is something I've been working on off and on and in for the last 40 years in a concentrated way or more than a dozen years. Many ways Michigan is ground 0 for water issues water infrastructure and with those issues of water affordability and so although I've been crisscrossing the country talking about this issue for the last year and a half or so it takes on a special meaning here special relevance I think it was a significant part of the been a tutorial election last year or so issues and Detroit went elsewhere on the on water infrastructure and affordability very very important salient stuff in the Great Lakes state so my remarks today I want to do 4 things it's going to be a lot of measurement but I want to talk about the a conventional method of measuring affordability for water and sewer services and why it's a bad approach I'm going to introduce a pair of new meaningful metrics for measuring household level of portability and then I'm going to use those metrics to paint a national affordability picture give you a sense of what what it kinda looks like across the country and then finally in the provide some initial impure of evidence on the correlates of affordability of how the my guide communities to craft solutions to the affordability challenges now or we're all improvising a little bit here today want one of the things that was in the promotional email for this this morning's event was that I would talk a little bit about public private partnerships and I'm not going to make that part of my formal presentation if they want to talk about that later that I'm happy to talk about utility ownership and public private partnerships what they might be good or not so good for happy to tackle that during you and a. So you can see the title on my slide here is water for debility measurement meaning and as I said a lot of what you're going to hear about today is going to be a measurement but it's it's I think that has a pretty clear implications for policy in practice the details for everything I'm going to talk about today are available in journal A W W A It's an article I published a year ago there's a forthcoming paper that gets it that looks more data please check that out if you want all the gory details you can see that at turn from the end of the W.A. or the papers also available on my website you're welcome to download it there the empirical analyses I'm going to show you are also all on my website as well. If you want to get in get into all the detail I'm going to skip most of that and just get the gist of it is get to the important findings I also will know that I blog on these issues that whenever I can so that if you ever want to see the latest greatest that's usually on my blog months before it's published anywhere else so here's where I'm going I'm going to start by talking about the Terrible Horrible No they're very bad measurements and then how to do better I'm going to introduce 2 metrics for affordability there they are the or build a bridge and then measuring things and with hours a minimal wage with that I will show you what those numbers look like cross the country and then and by discussing how you apply these measurements and findings you know policy setting but I want to start by talking for just a few minutes about the conventional approach to measuring water and sewer affordability or what I more accurately like to call a Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad measurement the most widely applied measure method of measuring affordability is to calculate the average residential bill or given utility. By the as a percentage of the community's median household and. I'm bringing this up because this approach to measuring affordability is so common that if you're ever discussing affordability if you're in the process of doing a rate study or revising by the actual planning your utility is likely that someone is going to bring up this measure this metric typically the percentages compared with a set affordability standard it's usually 2 percent for water maybe another 2 percent pursuers or you're doing a combine 2 or. Combined water and sewer analysis it might be $44.00 and a half percent will happen as people look at this number and then if the number is less than double if it's greater than 2 percent it declared an affordable now lots of very well meaning people who use this measure and this standard of affordability when evaluating rates and economic conditions just merit of this approach is that it's simple you can do this on the back of an envelope with easily accessible data takes a few minutes with a calculator or with greater do this calculation it's not difficult at all it has some intuitive appeal sense it relates cost to income at least or an entire utility as a whole and it has something of the veneer of a legitimacy because it is loosely connected to an E.P.A. regulatory guideline and I'm a return to that in a moment but mostly people use this method because it's familiar they've been doing it for him it's been common for about 20 years and people like to use it because lots of other people like to use it however despite the widespread use of this metric this percentage median household income approach is deeply and seriously lot I could go on for an hour about why this is a terrible orrible no good very bad metric but if you remember nothing else. Remember this the main problem with this measure of affordability is that it does not measure affordability at least not for the low income households where it ought to matter most there are a number of reasons for that the 1st of all the conventional median household income metric and the accompanying 2 percent or 4 percent standard developed by U.P.A. were never intended to measure household level affordability they were intended as a gauge of community financial capacity for purposes of the go shooting things like consent decrees compliance regulatory compliance the idea that this number would be a measure of financial capacity can be traced back to at least 184000 internally documents the 1st time it shows up as anything like a standard appears in as a measure of utility level financial capability this number is not crazy but it is an awful way to measure household level affordability unfortunately a lot of people will use this metric as a way to measure household or ability and then they'll claim all this is an E.P.A. standard that is simply back fully incorrect and if so some whatever a consultant a community member of an elected official tells you of those of the E.P.A. standards or ability they're wrong it simply is not the case. Seconding problem with this metric is that the conventional approach puts average bill in the numerator average bill divided by median household income the trouble is that an awful lot of what drives average water demand is not water for basic health needs as a matter of public policy we're probably not interested in the affordability of irrigating somebody is happy girl on we're probably not interested in the affordability of filling a swimming pool or washing a car what we're really talking about in affordability discussion is basic health needs drinking water water for cooking cleaning sanitation those things that are important for human health needs method metric does not account for other possibility now water is really important and I don't argue maybe the most essential thing that people need day to day but food health care housing and on a day like today a reminder home energy are also essential costs and these costs can vary widely from place to place and from time to time the conventional method that percentage median household income is completely insensitive to these costs finally and maybe most egregiously the conventional metrics focused on the median income misses the main point of affordability Now look there are some desperately poor communities in the United States but in all but the most desperately poor places median household generally don't have an affordability problem affordability is not a problem for people in the middle of the income distribution for water and sewer it's not median incomes it's low income households low income households may have to make really difficult economic decisions based on water bills but the conventional metric doesn't focus on low income households it focuses on the media that's preposterous right on its face so we need to do better. I'm going to start by plainly stating the principles that underlie my approach to measuring affordability Goodwater or debility metric ought to do at least basic water demands from a public policy perspective as I mentioned we're not really worried about. The affordability of your getting your yard we're worried about the affordability of water needs for human health 2nd a good metric should account for the real tradeoffs that households have to make and so we need to account for other essential living costs and then finally we want to focus on low income customers people who face the most serious economic tradeoffs when they pay for water service not not at the middle or the top end of the distribution the whole distribution we want to look at the low end of the income distribution so these principles in my eyes develop a double barreled metric the 2 approaches a 2 in 2 numbers are called the together these 2 metrics give a great complementary perspective on affordability So they're really meant to be used together with a start of the affordability ratio for debility ratio is a it takes the same basic concept as the the conventional method but make some refinements that make it a lot more valid mathematically So this is this the idea is that it's the basic water and sewer cost as a percent of disposable income so that the 2 critical differences between the conventional approach and this approach that we're looking at basic water service water sewer service cost not average and we're looking at disposable income not not total income. Mathematically it looks like this if the cost a basic per capita water sewer service multiplied by a household and then we divide it by the household income less other essential expenses besides water and sewer so things like taxes housing health care and home energy for the purposes of today's calculations are going to show you later those are the other the non water essential expenses taxes housing health care food home energy reasonable people can disagree about what other kinds of things might belong in that other essential expenses category don't get too hung up on that you can always change whatever goes into that calculation I met with some folks last week in California they want to put child care for example into that metric or perhaps transportation like commuting costs and that's perfectly reasonable to be a little bit more conservative in our metrics we're going to use these 55 categories today but you can put anything you want into that category so finally because we're not interested in the middle of the distribution we're going to focus on the 20th income percentile so the affordability ratio at the 20th income percentile or A R 20 again is nothing magic about the going to use that is that in welfare economics the 20th percentile the traditional cutoff for the middle class it's the you can think of people as the 20th then percentile of something like the working poor these are folks who Pretty have very limited financial resources but maybe have too high an income to qualify for a lot of public assistance programs so these are these are people who struggle to make ends meet each month but but but still do not necessarily get a lot in the way a public space. If you can nail down this measure is a very good way to assess support billet However one thing about the A R 20 is it's a bit abstract so I have another metric that puts things in more tangible terms and also provides a nice kind of analytical backstop in case something goes weird with the A R 20 and that's simply to calculate water sewer costs in terms of hours of labor at minimum wage. Mathematically it's very simple it's because the basic per capita water sewer service again multiply by household size just like we saw before and now we're just going to divide by the hourly minimum wage wherever you happen to be now this is not as good a metric as they are 20 it's not sensitive to other essential costs not sense of this other possible living but it is easy to calculate and it's wonderfully into it when I talk to different audiences about this this double barreled metric it's one of the economists much prefer the A R 20 and so the rate great piece like that politicians really like ours minimum wage community activists really like ours and minimal wage it's got a real visceral appeal and for those of us who have worked at minimum wage to some point in our lives and I certainly have that really mean something you get a sense of just how much value you're put in for the other nice thing is incidentally that's always a useful touchstone for making international comparisons when you think about how much time people in the developing world spend trying to get water this is a really nice reminder yeah that maybe they're spending several hours a day trying to get water and I can't stress enough as imperfect inaccurate as this metric is on its own it is far better than the conventional approach and pretty much every way and it does represent the economic tradeoffs that people make in order to pay for our water and sewer service so we're turning to our principles of measurement. We can see that these metrics together satisfy all 3 of the principals better for driving for base volume where counting for other sense living costs and we're focusing on low income customers and surely a very quickly an example of what this looks like from these rates from Dallas Texas in $27.00 teams how you calculate this stuff 2017 basic monthly in water and sewer service of demand that that in that implies for a family a family of 450 gallons per capita per day now again a number that you shouldn't get too hung up on if your community. If basic water use is higher or lower you can adjust that number we use 50 gallon for capita per day because that's a very typical indoor design standard People are figuring out how much sewer flow to expect from a household they calculate that usually 50 gallons per capita per day it's also the indoor efficiency standard for both California and Texas maybe other places too but it's a useful number for that for that purpose however in some communities where water use is very conservative they might choose something more like 40 or go higher we're going to use 50 for purposes of our calculations today so anyway in Dallas that cost $5092.00 per month that's our numerator monthly income of the 20th percentile in Dallas 2017 was $1548.75 we estimate monthly essential expenses at 864 dollars $0.11 but we did that with a regression model using the consumer expenditure survey but you certainly don't have to do that and I've worked with communities who have done things like look at Craigslist. To see what housing costs go down to the supermarket and see what food costs and they've calculated these things on an ad hoc basis for their own communities that certainly perfectly acceptable in any case you get a disposable monthly income of $684.64 to the Buy had to buy $684.00 and you get an A R 20 value of 8.74 percent So that is the affordability ratio for Dallas minimum wage the hours minimum wage very straightforward calculation the same $5982.00 divided by the hourly minimum wage in Dallas which is $725.00 we only go with the federal minimum wage down Texas and we end up with hours minimum wage of $8.00 our set of labor to pay for basic monthly water and sewer costs that measurement approach in mind allows me today some data upon you the article at the post last year developed these metrics for the top 25 U.S. cities. Today I'm going to show you some new analysis based on a national sample of hundreds of utilities this is all in an article that should be published later in the spring there's an advanced version of this paper on my website so again if you like the details it's there but we do is we calculated affordability metrics for a randomized stratified sample of utilities from across the country it's a balance to be as closely as close to perfectly representative as possible within our data constraints after we live in a case of missing data we ended up with 329 usable cases for analysis now there are tens of thousands of water systems in America so it's a very carefully designed highly representative sample I learned how to do survey methodology here at the University of Michigan so I really know what I'm doing I believe that this is the most representative analytically reliable water and sewer rates survey to date as a quick aside and that state is one of the few places in the developed world where we don't have good national data on water rates so pretty much everything we do have to be collected. Ad hoc and I'm happy to talk about all of warring methodological details if you want right now I want to get the interesting results here's what we found. This is the distribution of A R 20 across the country remember that A R 20 is a share of supposable income that a family of 4 at the 20th income percentile have to pay for water and sewer service basic water and sewer service you see about 2 thirds are under 10 we've got this kind of skewed distribution. That the national average She is 9.7 percent of the way to think about this in substantive terms is that households at the 20th income percentile spend less than 10 percent of their disposable income on water sewer service and about 2 thirds of the country and you can see how it sort of spreads out to the right hand side most fall under 20 percent less than one percent pay more than that we have a R 20 values greater than there and I want to be careful about the inferences where you want to generally be careful about inferences on those very high numbers 25 and up usually that says more about local economic conditions than it says anything about water sewer rates we're talking about it places where the bottom end of the disk the income distribution is just very very low years affordability measured in hours at minimum wage as we expect there's a somewhat similar overall distribution about 45 percent fall under 8 hours I think I 8 hours is a useful touchstone because it's one working day what about half of America's utilities base of water and sewer service for a family or cost about a day's labor at middleweight or less another half or so or close to half or between $8.16 hours and again you've got a handful of systems that are out way up there and because these things are measured in hours of minimum wage you can really infer something about the rate structure with a high numbers here that's just places where water and sewer service is really expensive national average about 9.6 hours so that's nicely representative data set we can start doing some interesting things like identifying the empirical correlates of affordability so I am going to talk about just a few of them today I want to start with science. It turns out there is a pretty strong relationship between the size of the utility and the affordability of its rates this is this is a regression the result of a regression model where we predicted a R 20 value on the well as a function of the utility size. What you've got here on the on the vertical axis is the error when the value on the horizontal is the population by a utility plot of that on a logarithmic scale so that you can get a sense of the range of utilities out there and then remember now low numbers are good as like golf so you want you want to small number 2 to make water and sewer service portable and on average you see there's a pretty steep the explosive there is a pretty strong relationship and in general affordability improves as systems get larger here's the same model this time we're looking at hours minimum wage in the same relationship the that the affordability improves with larger systems this is just more evidence we see more evidence all the time that small systems struggle small water systems struggle a lot of ways and that system consolidation of regionalization is probably a pretty good idea for purposes of affordability I think there's going to come back to this later but I think there's a tendency for more people to assume well this is this is a story of a con of the scale and that's true it's certainly true that we're looking at economies of scale from a capital perspective but there are also some important economies of scale for financial purposes and I'll talk about that later on another finding a frequent interest is investor owned versus in local government utilities there's the average affordability numbers the A R 20 values aren't blew up. The hours a minimum wage that green checkered bars Ranger bars as you can see the Nationwide there is not all that much difference between private special district and municipal utilities in terms of a R 20 those blue bars are really pretty similar in terms of hours of minimum wage the investor owned utilities are significantly higher than units for utilities by Szell districts or somewhere in between so we're back to we're back to ownership here and as I was saying there there's a pretty significant difference between investor owned utilities on hours of minimum wage but not necessarily be a are 20. Now I want to turn to rate this time and how it informs affordability much of the debate over public debate over water affordability both nationally and here in Michigan both this is on assistance programs and how they might help low income households are struggling with their bills and that's important to talk about that a little bit but 1st most important thing that drives affordability conditions is rates so let's look at some aspects of rate design and how they might relate to affordability again looking at lots of net data across the country allows us to look empirically the relationship between affordability and rate structure let's start with volumetric rate structure most utilities cross country charge for water service with a combination of fixed periodic rates each with a fixed monthly or bi monthly charge plus a volume metric rate that varies according to the amount of water that household uses let's look at the 3 most common races Here's a inclining declining and last rate when in climbing block rate structure is rate structure where you pay increasing cost as you use more water so maybe you pay $2.00 per 1000 gallons for the 1st 5000 gallons and then maybe you pay $3.00 for the next 5000 gallons and then you pay maybe $5.00 per 1000 gallons if you use more than 10000 gallons that would be an example of inclining block rate structure the utilities use declining block what actually goes the other way you pay higher prices for the 1st few 1000 gallons of water and then you pay lower prices as you use more like you get a volume discount and then there are many utilities that use flat rates where you just pay the same amount no matter same amount for a 1000 gallons no matter how much you use and you see the relationship here remember small numbers are good as which see here is that incline block rates utilities and climbing block rates generally generate lower portability score so the affordability is better where utilities are using inclining block rates that is an important lesson here declining Well that's a before you get that declining block by rates are about the same but they have on average significantly worse affordability an important lesson here as I think that there is a common narrative out there that conservation oriented rates structures create affordability problems but these results suggest On the contrary conservation oriented rates can be the most of portability friendly. I think another useful way to think about a great design when you're developing rates for your communities or looking at the rates charged by your community is to look at the price of the 1st gallon to the 1st gallon price is simply a fixed charge plus the 1st volume metric unit and that's a useful touchstone because this is the amount of data that a household has to pay no matter what if you use any water at all this is what you're going to have to pay each month let's look at the relationship between the 1st gallon price and affordability is as you'd expect there's a pretty steep relationship there. The 1st gallon prices really the 1st round gallon price an A R $20.00 the same thing with hours of minimum wage so again the significance of rate design here is lower fixed charges and lower fixed charges and low prices for the 1st volume metric unit strongly predict affordability So that's a lot of numbers I could show you a lot more but I want to kind of get to what it all means when I talk about this stuff people invariably ask me OK Professor if you know a lot of numbers lots and lots of numbers what is that all me what do we do with all of that number what's affordable health lease tell us what's affordable well when confronting the portability questions utility leaders and policy makers are really asking not what's affordable what they're really asking is how much is it reasonable to expect households of limited means to pay for an essential service something that literally keeps them alive what act economic sacrifices are reasonable to expect a low income households make in order to pay for their water bill. These are fundamentally normative questions one of the problems with the conventional approach to war debility measurement that I didn't talk about earlier is the completely arbitrary nature of the 2 percent or 4 percent drop it's as if a prophet descended from the mountain top with a stone tablet that said is an affordable and that's just silly no metric in itself can define what is affordable This is a normative question it's a question of morality and ethics and there is no scientific answer to what is fundamentally a philosophical question question what sacrifices should I have and low income households have to make the pay the water bill and democratic societies are these questions are inevitably political and good measurement can help facilitate good decisions but measurement cannot replace decision making so I'm going to draft up by talking briefly about what it means in practice and how communities are beginning to use these metrics to set policy I'm going to start with Phoenix So Phoenix Arizona is going magine water is a big deal in Phoenix Unix's utility was under pressure recently to address affordability as they were planning for a rate increase last year and they were in the process of developing planning for rate increases going into effect this year 2019. So Phoenix used to A R 2010 hours at minimum wage to assess their current affordability conditions in their city and then develop standards using those metrics that were supposed to be consistent with the city's community values and so to aid in that process the city used a citizens a water rate advisory committee of the group of volunteers who came together representing a wide of the illogical spectrum and different parts of their from unity and they their job was to deliberate over these affordability metrics and decide what was going to be affordable for the people of the next I understand I only met this group one time I was I'm assuming that this is a before picture not an after picture because they also look pretty happy and civil but I understand that their deliberations got quite heated at times because we're talking about questions of values and trying to decide what does affordability need to us and included in this group were community organizing activists and local Tea Party member or a member of that sort of Tea Party organization who had people from across the logical spectrum debating this I came in and I showed them how to how do you these metrics but I didn't tell them will it was affordable because that was their job what they ended up with was using the 2 metrics and they established standards for the city of Phoenix A R 20 value of less than 10 percent and hours of minimum wage of less than 8. And those metrics are used in 2 ways One is that they were used to set of guidelines for their utility and said Look water sewer department as you develop your race proposal for next year we want you to ensure that your rates never generate an A R 20 value over 10 percent keep that number under 10 percent that's not a target it's a limit like a guardrail we don't want you to hit 10 percent we want you to stay well under 10 percent same thing with ours at minimum wage that was to them what represented the the values of the city of Phoenix and then the city use those numbers to set rates they also used those numbers to help fund determine how much they needed to fund their assistance program they out of the bill assistance program for low income folks and they combined these guidelines with the census data that they had for the city to to get a good estimate for how much they were going to need to fund their assistance program future knowing that essentially they were going to that their their guideline was telling us this is what we need if households are going more than 8 hours of minimum wage going over 10 percent of their disposable income we need to help them out so that that those those metrics help them define their their policy goals for affordability assistance as well. City of Austin Texas Austin water did something very similar they were under orders from city council to evaluate affordability and just last month Boston water delivered a very comprehensive report on its portability to their city council they decided on an even more stringent standard that was best for their city and they said and used a R 20 they didn't use hours minimum wage for these they are 20 and they set their goal if by percent combined rate of 5 percent and they buy as ads in Phoenix they are using a R 20 to help design both rates and their assistance program and it's at their goal 5 percent those cases are great examples of how measurement and health sound policy making so I want to end with with just a couple of things 1st basic principles of practice with effect with respect to measurement and then I would talk about policy alternatives to have addressed affordability for them is the principle for practice number one is to measure meaningfully select metrics that capture the things you want to capture naturally I think my metrics are great There are however other valid approaches average bill percent of median household income is not a valid approach despite its frequent use the main things are to provide the basic volume account for cost of living and focus on low income households that can use these metrics to set goals Vandar guidelines that reflect community values and priorities measurement can help you do that but in the end standard setting means deliberation means compromise means negotiation that's what the democratic process is for. And finally once you set your goals evaluate affordability over time and within utilities but don't compare across utilities when evaluating a potential rate structure or change or ability assistance program these metrics should make sure that rates are consistent with community values and goals or at least moving in that direction comparing across utilities is a bad idea in others a common psychologist would tell us in a human tendency to think about all performance in comparison with others when we're little kids we're interested in how am I faster than the other kids can I jump higher than the other kid that my how my doing compared to the other kids and that's you know that comparison across systems is great for academic researchers like me and we're trying to look for patterns in data but it's not a good idea for setting policy comparison across systems distracts from the core issue of affordability considered this way if I'm a low income families I'm leading a low income family in Lansing and I'm struggling to pay my water bill the fact that a family in Detroit might be better off and $1.00 in Grand Rapids might be worse off and it's not really very relevant to me what's relevant to me is the price of my own water bill not what a poor person in another city is paying for their water bill so setting affordability policy in your state community by assessing affordability and other communities is a little bit like buying shoes by measuring everybody else's feet utility rates and affordability programs ought to be based on local conditions and local goals and local values not on what other people are doing all right if you've got an affordability issue or you're worried that you might have an order billet issue you've got some options some things that you can try to do to address them. One is consolidation regionalization or for that matter just trying to gain efficiencies elsewhere to drive down basic costs it's not just about the physical system but in many ways trying to try and capture economies of scale at the organizational level with things like human capital and operational functions these these steps can help at the margins I think we see strong correlations with affordability less often observed that a large system not just doesn't just provide physical economies of scale it also provides greater financial stability if you're a small system and a handful of your customers start to fall behind on their bills that can create a financial challenge a larger system simply by virtue of having a lot of customers can weather more financial volatility and that's important for rate setting to get you in just a 2nd the next point rate design we saw earlier rate design can have a strong effect on affordability you want to drive down that the basic cost of service can include things like a low fixed charge a thin client lock rate structure maybe include something like a base volume allowance one of the reasons that Phoenix Arizona has such nice affordability measures is that they're fixed charges very low I want to say like 15 or $16.00 a month for water and sewer and then on top of that it includes the 1st base charge they don't they Secondly the 1st 2000 gallons are included in the base price and then the price starts to go up after that it's very steeply inclined if you use a lot of water if you've got a large lawn in Phoenix that you want to irrigate that's going to cost you quite a lot but they said that basically volume at a very very low price so low prices for basic volumes between higher prices for peak volume however. The real problem with that approach to rate setting is it does expose a utility to revenue volatility if it rains all summer and nobody waters their lawn then you don't get a lot of that peak volume where you generate a lot of revenue at the other extreme if you get into an extreme drought and the community has to impose water restrictions you get the same problem people don't sell any water system so selling water than they are therefore they don't make any money and that can cost financial problems in the short term and utilities can find themselves short on revenue in what is a very high fixed cost business so to go along and raise designs who may have to revisit standard Reserve policy rather than keeping a 30 year 60 or 90 day operating hours or utilities may think about keeping much larger cash reserves around to help manage that revenue volatility unfortunately that sometimes creates a political problem because if the utility sitting there and has got a big bank account. Policy political leaders can look at that say well gosh why do you keep raising the rates to pay for new things why don't you spend down that reserve before you come and ask us for or more funding and explaining to them that that's there as a reserve to help. Shore up revenue volatility or manage revenue volatility may or may not be of you know of a compelling argument however it could be to helping to manage affordability and then find them and talk just a little bit about subsidies assistance programs this is a tricky thing to do in Michigan and a handful of other states because state law restricts the ability of the utilities to transfer rate revenue from one group of customers to another but there may be opportunities for assistance programs they can be funded in some other ways. You want to think about the administrative costs here unfortunately a lot of the jury affordability problems are in the smallest utilities which may only have a handful of them please if you have to devote employees to managing an assistance program it might be difficult to administer such an assistance program and that's why I think a promising model is to partner with local social service agencies I've seen some small utilities do that successfully to partner with a local television Army chapter for example to administer their assistance program and the last thing is to think about administrative cost to the customer and sometimes folks who run utilities forget about that when if you're asking somebody who's working on an hourly wage basis to spend a significant amount of time gathering documentation going through an application process that can create an affordability challenge ironically at the same time so in the end I think the way to think about the relationship between between rate design and assistance programs is like the relationship between inoculation and therapy if you want to have a healthy population you need to be able to do the right you want to be able to inoculate a population against these but you also want to be able to treat the people who are sick great design and help you help inoculate the population against an affordability problem but in the cases where people are still challenge and assistance programs can help a lot of treat them the way to clinical there the would help address disease so that that's the end of my reason patients love to chat with me if there are questions and thank you all for dialing in and sticking with us as well as the power went out here. This is Tom I have I go I'm going to go through and try to everybody. That may or may not work. If people have questions in the you doing system seems not to be working you can put questions in through the chat system as well that should be off to the right hand side of your window there but I think I think we have people on mute it is as best we can so if anyone has any questions now's the time feel free to just go ahead and speak up. Through chat or just directly Hi Dr Theodore all this is pulling see a moblie can you hear me if I can right I have a question regarding inclining clock rate structure and what you may have seen in some of your research or whether you have seen this in your research. Anecdotally we did an analysis here in Detroit a brief analysis regarding. Basic water volume and looking at 3rd since the strike that would have been within you know the federal poverty level that line and what we found is that many of the customers had much higher usage and basic volume and thus inclining block rate structure potentially. Of them as are related to affordability Have you seen any data like that elsewhere. The short answer is yes and I think there might be a couple of things going on here let me let me ask you a quick follow up though before I before talk more was that that high use in the in the lower income areas that was that high peaking cost or was that winter time call you know so it seemed to be I believe it may have been. More they say meaning that probably properties that have leased you know Detroit is different than a lot of state even that we have a large number of single family residence structures and at this point I think about half of that structure population is renters and. Keeping all of that in mind we believe that there are plumbing issues that are precipitating the high volume so we launched as part of our program that is funded through the Great Lakes Water Authority the formation of our lives water for the rec program we did toilet and now have all the data from that but we did the certain customers have significantly reduced deal even though that in the right program. We're able to there's a $1000.00 or the payment as business as part of that and a lot of those customers still go down but I was just curious to see if that data correlate it potentially elsewhere sometimes with the lower income customers. Yes How you this sure answer is yes it does and so it is you're well aware Detroit is weird in a lot of ways when it comes to the water system and this is just one of the ways in which Detroit's a little bit of an outlier Yes Normally when you see the high volume use is related to peak and what you just described is is not it's not unique to Detroit but it Detroit maybe you have more and this is more of an intense problem where where you are and that is yes correct that the you know a lot of cases Ironically the low income households may have higher basic water use not because their water hogs but because you know leaks or hide in there or fixtures old appliances maybe still got 5 gallon flush toilets yet they don't you know they don't have high efficiency fixtures. And so yeah I mean to your approach that that sounds like that the geology taking is the is the one that I think we see in a lot of cases a lot of play communities around the country are trying to do fixture and appliance retrofits to try to help the low income households become more efficient. And I think that that's the approach as I'm sure you know it's challenging right and it's and it's in some guy I know one case where the utility couldn't even give away the fixtures and appliances because there was such distrust between their customers and the syllabi organization. They're saying what you want to come into my home you want to replace my fixtures in with out that trust it's tough so yeah I want to be I want to use your question give me the opportunity to make an important point here which is when we see that the relationship between affordability incline block rates that is that is true but it is it has a true correlation but that's an average that that line represents an average across thousands of utilities across the country and individually solidities may have characteristics like you just described in Detroit that and that means that well maybe this this is an approach that doesn't really help us the way we'd like it to because of something unique about the way our customers our customer blah base looks Thank you great point. If anybody else has any questions please feel free to chime right in through your phone or microphone or through the chat OK Well it looks like I think that is going to cover it for today thank you all for joining us taking time of your day thanks to the Michigan municipal week for partnering with us to close up and a special thank you to Professor Theodore for his engagement with local government officials in general and for a very informative presentation today we have recorded this presentation and we'll have it available soon if you would like to get a copy please feel free to e-mail us it's close up that Umesh edu or you can call 734-647-4091. Including any any follow a question that you may have to this would be happy to pass along again thank you all very much and we hope to cross paths again by.