0:01:03.2 Beth Soboleski: Hi everybody, my name is Beth Soboleski. I'm the Director of Admissions and Recruiting here at the Ford School, and I really appreciate you joining us today for this webinar on Hands-on Practical Engagement Opportunities at the Ford School for our Master Students. We're really delighted to have a panel of community members here to join us today that are affiliated with a variety of our research centers. They're gonna provide you with information about opportunities through those centers as well as across the school. So I'm really happy to have you here. And I will turn it over to our Associate Dean Celeste Watkins-Hayes. Thanks, Celeste.

0:01:37.2 Celeste Watkins-Hayes: Thank you so much. Good afternoon everyone. It is great to see you virtually. Thank you for connecting with us and for being with us and thank you for your interest in the Ford School. We know that you have a lot of different opportunities to choose from as you think about this next stage of your career and this next stage of your education, and we're delighted that you're checking us out and that you are visiting with us today virtually to hear more about what we do. One of the things that's really exciting about the Ford School is our research centers. We've got several, involved in everything from analyzing and responding to solutions around poverty, education, racial justice, international affairs, Finance policy, you name it.

0:02:24.4 CW: And what we thought would be great today is for you to get a taste of some of the work that we're doing in our respective centers, so that you really understand the nexus between the teaching that we're doing at the Ford School, the research that the faculty and many of the students are engaged in, and then our Practical Policy Engagement, how we're sending our ideas into the world. So I'm really delighted to present this group today, and what I'm gonna ask them to do first is to talk about some of the projects that students are working on within each of their centers. So each of the folks that you're gonna hear from is just gonna give you a little introduction to their center and what they do, and then they're gonna talk about how students plug into that. So I'm gonna start with Cindy Bank, who's the Associate Director in the Program in Practical Engagement. Cindy, do you wanna kick us off, please? 

0:03:18.8 Cindy Bank: Sure. Happy to do that. Thanks, Celeste and hi everyone. I really am hoping that we get to welcome you in person in the fall. My name as Celeste said is Cindy Bank and I'm the Associate Director of the Program in Practical Policy Engagement. So our program is relatively new, we're in our fourth year, and obviously the importance of the Ford School and doing the Practical Policy Engagement, we named a center after it. And I returned to Ann Arbor after spending 35 years in Washington DC, actually being a practitioner of this and a lobbyist. So as far as our center is the... We call it P3E, and we have three pillars, one is engaged learning, one is engagement research, and one is policy impact. So the engaged learning and the policy research interact with each other, and we have students who work both...

0:04:16.5 CB: With students, there's opportunities to work as research fellows, there's opportunities to work through classroom settings, group projects, or independent studies, which... So the classroom and the independent study are for credit. Research fellow, we actually provide funding for. And we do public policy projects with real life partners, with outside partners. We have so many different partners. I just thought I'd give you a quick sort of glimpse of sort of the range, everything from the federal government, we've had recent projects with the GAO, with the state department, with the Department of Energy. We've worked with local governments, City of Detroit, City Council, we work with state representatives. Recently, we've done one with one state representative on issues around nursing homes in COVID. Now they're with the infrastructure funding because of the flooding issues that happen in Detroit. We work with school boards and we work with a lot of community organizations.

0:05:20.1 CB: And it's on a range of policies from creating Detroit... Or recognizing Detroit as a B city, to working on police and community relations, to cybersecurity, tobacco elimination in schools, landlord engagement and best practices for affordable housing, teacher shortage and education issues, Great Lake issues. It's just a wide range. And on top of... Besides doing the research, we also hold workshops that will help provide you the skills that are needed to take what you're researching about and learning about to actually impact the policy, it's a local, state and federal and even the international level. So workshops and effective advocacy skills and communication skills, working with community partners, and those are just a small example. So this is just a small, quick overview of what we do at P3E, and we're just a small piece of what's going on here. So should I turn it over to John? 

0:06:26.8 CW: Wonderful. Yes, let's hear from John.

0:06:28.7 John: Sounds good. Thanks, Cindy and Celeste. Very nice to see you. Thanks for your interest in the Ford School. I'm happy to say we have lots of practical, engaging learning opportunities in international affairs, which is the focus of our Weiser Diplomacy Center and our twin center, the International Policy Center, that shares our suite here in Weill Hall. There are several different categories for students engagement on and off campus to get practical training in foreign affairs. One example of our many initiatives is Diplomacy Lab. We're a partner university for the State Department, and we right now have a few dozen of our students working on teams for projects that will assist diplomats serving in the field to answer questions that will inform their work. For example, right now, we've got one team working on solar power issues in Namibia and Botswana. We have another team working on precursor drug manufacturing in China. Another that I supervise working on women's role in peace building, and a further project on peace and stability operations in the Balkans. As Celeste knows, one of our projects just approved for the winter term is going to focus on cultural property issues that she'll supervise. We have others on topics ranging from human trafficking to forced labor in Xinjiang, to Japanese policy on climate change, and many others.

0:07:48.4 John: So this is one example of ways the teams of our students are engaged in practical learning with immediate policy impact. We also have a variety of other programs that we sponsor here at our twin international centers. We fund summer internships, and students have gone to a diverse array of international internships from the US Embassy in Bogotá to the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe in Vienna, from the German Marshall Fund, to the Asia Foundation, the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development in London, NGOS in Mexico, in Bulgaria, and many others. Geographically and thematically, we have a really wide range of partnerships as Cindy mentioned on the P3E, [0:08:33.4] ____ the same is true internationally. We also fund term-time externship for students to work remotely with partners while they're here in Ann Arbor on part-time basis. Often those lead to internships or jobs in the summer or after graduation. For example, we have students working now with NASA on space policy, we have students working with GLOBESEC, a European think tank and others. We have a category of what we call extended research projects, which are term-long projects that like externships we provide funding for, enable students to partner with think tanks or other organizations to do policy relevant research on a part-time basis here on campus.

0:09:15.2 John: For example, we have students who have done projects on illicit gold mining in the Andean region, projects on climate change in Europe. We have two students just about to start projects on Asia, one on non-traditional security cooperation in the Straits of Malacca, another one on Korean domestic politics. In each of these instances, the goal, of course, is not just to learn how to do research, but to build connections and networks with think tanks who are partners and who are supervising this work. We have a third category of funded projects that we call SIPS or student-initiated projects. Those are typically about a week in length, they can fit right after a semester or during a winter or spring break, and they're opportunities for students to roll up their sleeves and do hands-on policy engagement on areas they're interested in. For example, we've had a couple of groups go down to Guatemala to work with a leading human rights to organization over spring break. We had another group go down to the border with Mexico to study local responses to federal inaction on migration policy, and how are local communities in places like Brownsville and Matamoros adjusting to those federal gridlocks.

0:10:30.3 John: SIP students have also gone to do things like present research on a NATO conference in Ottawa or on a conference on climate change in Finland, to go work for a week in a refugee camp in Greece serving Syrian migrants and many more. Here on campus, we have training opportunities for students, workshops, as Cindy mentioned for P3E, we also do that on the international side. We just had one from a former US Ambassador on US Russia relations, and if you were a mid-level staff... Or how would you craft the next round of demands of Russia and the strategic stability dialogue? We have another one coming up soon on energy policy in Eastern Europe as part of the US Russia Foundation Grant. We've had simulations, including one recently on Jammu and Kashmir led by colleagues at the Army War College, others on violent extremism, on humanitarian assistance in Yemen and other topics.

0:11:25.6 John: And last but not least, we have overseas courses for our Master's students, including one we call the International Economic Development Program, and another that is focused on China. This year's IEDP, just as one example, is going to Puerto Rico, and teams of students will divide up and write research papers based on stakeholder interviews about different themes of interest in Puerto Rico, environmental politics, criminal justice, small and medium enterprise development and more. So these are just a few indications of the many ways you could be involved in policy relevant work and engaged learning here at the Ford School, I hope you'll come join us. So thank you, and I wanna pass to Christie.

0:12:08.4 Christie Baer: Hey everybody. I'm Christie Baer with the Center on Finance, Law & Policy, we put the fun in finance. So the Center on Finance, Law & Policy conducts academic research, and we also run a large program called the Detroit Neighborhood Entrepreneurs Project, and that works to help local Detroit business owners with their legal, financial design, operational accounting needs. So through DNEP, we hire undergrads as interns, but most relevant to you is that we have a lot of research assistants. So I think if I think about what is great about the Ford School students who we tend to hire, and we typically hire... About one-third of our 22 students come from the Ford School, is that a lot of times, they are looking to make a career pivot and they have found a problem in the world that they wanna solve, and they're trying to pick up the skills to be able to solve that problem, and this is a really great place to be able to be with other people who are invested in the public good and want to use rigor and data to solve that. So some of the projects that our students are working on... Our projects generally tend to revolve around financial inclusion, is the heart of what we do. So we are generally trying to do work to make the financial system safer, fairer, better harness to the real economy, and so we do projects related to FinTech, financial stability, inclusive entrepreneurship.

0:13:39.5 CB: So right now, some of our Ford School MPPs are working with faculty to design a public-private mega fund that would reduce some of the risks associated with high-risk, high reward projects such as pharmaceutical development, to make sure that promising things like vaccines have a chance to make it a little further through. We have students working on a project at the intersection of climate change and financial inclusion, so that people who are low income and people who are in the lowest income countries aren't left out of this green revolution, and it just doesn't become something that you get to do if you're wealthy enough. We have students who are writing a case study to evaluate our university-based program to help mostly minority-owned business owners in Detroit, and we are working on a project to study the decision-making of micro-enterprises and to look at... If you have a very small company that those people act like more like consumers and not as much like large, sophisticated corporations, and so what does that mean in terms of making... Designing policies and laws and things to support small businesses in a meaningful way? 

0:15:08.0 CB: So those are just some of the things that are happening right now. I think what's most fun about the Ford School and being part of this community with other research centers is that the Ford School provides an opportunity for students to develop their own jurisdictional hook, their specialized area of expertise coming straight out of the gate that makes them competitive as compared to their peers.

0:15:33.3 CW: Wonderful. And Christie, Cindy and John are... The opportunities sound amazing, and I know that some students are wondering, are these paid opportunities? Do you take them for credit? How do you ensure that people are able to take advantage of the opportunities when they've gotta be mindful of their financial needs and also making sure that they're progressing through the program. John, do you wanna start and speak to...

0:16:03.3 John: Sure, I'm happy to start, Celeste. We have... A few of the programs that I mentioned have funding attached to them. So if you come to Ford and you are doing a term-time externship on a part-time basis, if you're doing a short-term student-initiated project, if you're doing a semester-long extended research project, or if you're doing a summer internship, all of those are funded. And we do that precisely because we want you to be able to focus on your coursework and on the most relevant type of funded work available to be able to make ends meet. If you're doing some of the other programs, for example, if you're in one of our international courses or simulations, if you're a part of Diplomacy Lab, you can get credit for those activities. We don't do both simultaneously, so you can generally choose in those opportunities if you wanna do it for credit, or if you wanna pursue an independent study, for example, or if you wanna seek funding for it. But one way or the other, we try to enable you to do these forms of engaged learning in a way that keeps your course load manageable and enables you pay to rent.

0:17:14.1 CW: Wonderful. Cindy, do you wanna speak to this question? 

0:17:17.1 CB: Sure. We have a couple of opportunities. Our practical community learning project is a two-credit independent study, and that happens both winter and... Fall and winter semester. And we are also associated with the strategic public policy consulting class, which I believe is three or four credits, I don't even know how many credits it is, but again, those are student team projects, working with real life clients on the policy project. And then we do... During certain semesters, we do support research fellows, we pay the research fellows to work for outside organizations.

0:18:01.7 CW: Nice. Okay, Christie.

0:18:03.9 CB: Yeah, the Center on Finance, Law & Policy, we pay all of our research assistants. Occasionally, someone wants credit instead, and we're able to do that, but I think there are lots of people who were first generation students who are on staff and faculty at the Ford School, and there are some significant supports built in for that. Like, you don't have to be wealthy to get a really great education here.

0:18:26.1 CW: Wonderful. And then if a perspective student wants to learn more about how they can participate in the research activities, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Christie, do you wanna start? If they wanna continue the conversation, and particularly as they craft their applications...

0:18:48.2 CB: Sure, yeah. You're welcome to send me an email, that's probably the best way. I'll drop my email address into the chat here.

0:18:55.3 CW: Okay, wonderful. And Cindy? 

0:19:00.3 CB: I will also put my email address as well as our website address, which offers a lot more information.

0:19:07.1 CW: Okay, terrific. And John? 

0:19:09.7 John: I will do the same, I'm typing it out as we speak. And please do feel free to email me. Also feel free, when you visit our website, to look at our great staff who we have working here and our affiliated faculty, and feel free to get in contact with any of us who's interesting [0:19:27.2] ____.

0:19:29.3 CW: Wonderful. So I wanna open it up to our participants and just see what questions people have. And as people are getting their thoughts together, let me take this opportunity to say a few words about our most recent center, our baby center, The Center for Racial Justice, which I am the founding director of. We launched in August, and we're looking forward to building much of the infrastructure that you've heard about in terms of we're working on internships that we'll be able to offer, we're currently in partnership with several... In conversation with several organizations about being able to offer internships that focus on racial justice work. We currently are very focused on programming, and... Well, I'll put our website in the chat, we've been doing a lot of work around questions around the racial foundations of public policy, and we've launched a speaker series that is encouraging the Ford School students, faculty and staff to think through these questions, and people have been very, very excited about it, and the talks are on YouTube and on the website if you're interested in those.

0:20:37.1 CW: Thinking about education policy, economic policy, criminal justice, immigration from a racial justice lens. And we also have student reading groups for students who are interested in delving into these topics, and wanna put together a group of faculty and students who are deciding on a reading list and exploring these topics. Our Student Advisory Board has been assembled and they are identifying the projects that are most of interest to them in terms of what do we wanna do in the community? What do we wanna do in terms of policy engagement, what issues we wanna take up? So we're very student-driven and starting to flesh out exactly the kinds of opportunities and programs that will mirror a lot of what you have heard Cindy and Christie and John talk about. So by the time you join us next year, we'll have a lot of things in place for you to participate in, so we're really excited about that. Okay, let's see if we have any questions, feel free to put them in the chat area...

0:21:52.8 BS: Celeste, is it okay if folks just unmute themselves and ask what they would like? 

0:21:55.2 CW: They absolutely can. They absolutely can. And that way we can say hello to you. We'd love that.

0:21:58.1 BS: Okay. Yeah, so if you'd like to just ask your question, please do.

0:22:03.4 Nathan: Thank you. Yes, I do have a question. I appreciate all of the time that you folks have taken just to express what opportunities exist. There was something specific that Christie Baer mentioned, the idea of many of the students that she's had interaction with or individuals who were looking to make a career pivot, individuals who recognized that there was something that they were more passionate about, and were seeking the skills to really address those issues. To that end, I'm curious if anybody... Or if this would be the appropriate place for someone to speak about the MPA program, or how that kind of connects or what opportunities exist for the Master's in Public Affairs.

0:22:43.3 CB: Oh oh, I went off script. I went off script and opened a new can of worms, sorry.

0:22:50.8 BS: It's all good, Christie. So I'm happy to say a few words about the MPA program, Nathan, and if there's further questions that you wanna ask, I'm happy to do that. So for those of you that might not be aware... So we have two master's programs, our Master of Public Policy, which is our flagship program, it's a two-year program, the majority of our students. But we also have a one-year Master of Public Affairs Program, which is relatively new in design, we redesigned about four years ago, and it's, essentially, two semesters of course work. The Capstone sometimes can go into that summer semester. And I would say that that program probably does have quite a high population of folks that are looking to make a career pivot. We are looking for students in that program that have familiarity with the field of public policy but that doesn't mean working for a government official, that doesn't mean... We don't define that narrowly. Lots of folks that have maybe done in the private sector, but have worked on issues of in fact governmental regulation of that sort of stuff.

0:24:02.6 BS: So it's a smaller cohort. We're looking for about 25 students in that, so you get to know your classmates in a little bit different way. And it does require a minimum of five years of post-graduate work experience, so folks that are a little bit... In a little bit different place in their work life, most of the time... The minimum is five. I would say the average is probably significantly higher than that, but it has been a program, I mean... Unfortunately, in year two of the new MPA program, we had the pandemic strike, so I feel like we haven't 100% known what that program would look like in normal times, but I feel like students have found great benefit in that. I mentioned the Capstone Project, which is a five-credit project that you do in the winter semester. I think that is something that students have really benefited from, you kind of come out with a deliverable for the job market, if you will. So yeah, that's a pretty high level, but that's kind of an overview of that MPA program. If there's other questions you'd like to ask. Just let me know.

0:25:10.1 Nathan: Thank you so much. I think I'll email you directly, after recognizing that I derailed with your presentation and brought you off-script. So kudos to your improvising. Thank you very much.

0:25:18.1 BS: No worries. Glad to have a question. Others? 

0:25:26.6 Alex: I had a quick question about the Center for Local, State, and Urban Policy and the, I guess, research opportunities that students have, how that engagement goes through the year... Of course, COVID has obviously shifted how that all works, but would love to hear a little bit more from, I guess, whoever can address that center, if that make sense.

0:26:02.5 BS: So I will just... So there's quite a number of research centers, obviously, that we weren't able to have on the panel today. As we effectually call it, CLOSUP is definitely one of those, and I can drop a... So Tom Ivacko has been directing that center, and they've done really interesting work, I think. They run this really long-term study about the health of the municipalities in the state of Michigan, and that data, I think has been really informative to see how trending over time the way that communities in the state of Michigan have fared. And, oh, thanks for dropping that in the... In the chat, there's a list of our research centers. But they've delved into anything from... They've been research opportunities related to renewable energy issues, and all kinds of different things. So I would say probably you have interest in CLOSUP, that dropping a note to Tom Ivacko would be your best bet. And I can drop Tom's email... Maybe I'll tell them, but I can drop Tom's email in the chat and you can follow up with them. And a couple of the other big centers that we have, and I don't know if Celeste you wanna weigh in a bit...

0:27:22.7 BS: So the Poverty Solutions is a very large research center that we have here that I know we have a ton of opportunities for student involvement. The Education Policy Initiative, these Policy Labs, but we have a wonderful representative sample, it's not by any means an exhaustive list of the research opportunities here at the school. So I don't know if there were others that I missed that you'd wanna highlight, Celeste? 

0:27:44.3 CW: And I would just add the Center for Social Solutions run by Earl Lewis, and they're doing really interesting projects on the future of work and access to water. They've got a large grant to look at debates around reparations at the local level. So that's another one of the centers. And as Beth said, the Educational Policy Institute in Poverty Solutions, which does a lot of work at the state, federal and local level, they work closely with the city of Detroit, they work with Flint and other communities around local anti-poverty measures. And then the director, Luke Shaefer, is also very involved in federal conversations around anti-poverty policy, specifically the child tax credit, and some of the... Some of the things that you've seen in recent months, people within Poverty Solutions have been doing that research for years now, and are now seeing that come to fruition in the policy landscape.

0:28:51.1 CB: And I also just wanna mention something about with CLOSUP. And one of the things, too, that's really nice about Ford School is we're a relatively small unit on campus, and we all work really closely. So at one point, CLOSUP and P3E had joint projects going working with the voters, not politicians who really pushed through the redistricting in Michigan. So they were doing some heavy duty research on what communities of interest means while we had two students working with them on putting together a video to use to explain what does community of interest mean. And I also wanna mention our STPP, Science Technology and Public Policy. They've recently received a very nice grant and they're gonna start doing some research... Are hiring students to do research with outside STEM-type organizations on policy.

0:29:51.1 BS: Yeah, thank you for mentioning that, Cindy, because if you're interested in science and technology policy, we have classes related to that, but we also have a graduate certificate that a number of our students do in Science And Technology and Public Policy, so that's another opportunity. And one other research is... As you all know, at the University of Michigan is a very large public research university, there's research on every kind of topic that you can possibly imagine I feel going on on this campus, but one center that I know a number of Ford School students do work with is the Graham center sustainability center or Graham center for sustainability. They have a fellowship program called the Dow Fellows that a number of our students have gotten funding through, so if you're interested in issues related to environment and sustainability, the Graham center is also something to check out as well.

0:30:42.5 John: I'll add, Alex, that one nice feature of us being a small community is that if you have interest that span multiple centers as most of you probably do, it's quite easy in this building to physically walk down the hall. And we all know each other in a way that makes it easy to do things that are cross-sectional. For example, we had something with CLOSUP, where we had a partnership with the University of Toronto and the National Autonomous University of Mexico. And our theme last year was climate policy, which of course is not just a federal or a national issue, it's very much a local or provincial or state issue, and Barry Rabe, our colleague who works on those issues could partner with me and others in Mexico and in Canada to talk about both the sub-national and the international dimensions of climate policy. That's something that's very nice here, we're both an interdisciplinary school but we're also very well connected across our various thematic domains of interest.

0:31:41.8 Alex: Awesome. Thank you all. That answers all of my questions.

0:31:49.8 BS: One experiential component that I would mention that's not necessarily under the umbrella of our research centers, all of our students take... Well, all of our MPP students participate in what we call the integrated policy exercise, which is a one-credit class that at the beginning of winter semester, taking a deep dive into a particular topic selected by the faculty members supervising that program in that particular semester, and they sort... The topics vary between more domestically focused and more internationally focused, but that's also sort of a built-in opportunity for all of our MPP students to take on a role of a particular [0:32:29.1] ____ in this particular discussion and prepare presentations and different materials. So that's sort of a built-in part of the MPP curriculum that everybody would participate in, so I just wanted to not leave that part out. Other questions? Now, if you're raising your hand and I can't see you, so... Go ahead.

0:33:00.1 Mohamed: Hello? 

0:33:01.5 BS: Yes.

0:33:01.6 Mohamed: Can you hear me? 

0:33:02.9 BS: We can.

0:33:03.3 Mohamed: Yes. Thanks. This is Mohamed from Algeria. First of all, I want thank you for this informative session and letting me to be part of this meeting. Actually, I had two questions. The first one is regarding the admission process, and the second is about a Master itself. First of all, regarding the English language requirements, as an international applicant I'm supposed to be submitting a prove of language proficiency, yet now I'm enrolled in master degree totally conducted in English. So can this help me to meet your conditions? This is the first question. The second question, the second question, doing a Master in Public Policy within your university can help a graduate to do a PhD afterwards? Because I've been... I've found some that are some similar programs that are more focused on preparing graduates go to the job market, more than preparing them to be engaged in a research process, so what can say in this regard? Thanks.

0:34:32.7 BS: So I'll tackle that first question really quickly, Mohamed. When we're done with this, I'll put my email in the chat, but if you just shoot me a quick email, I can direct you to resources about the English proficiency testing and the requirements. So if you do complete a Master's degree at a program that is conducted entirely in the English language, they can exempt you from the English proficiency rules, but there's rules around the length of that program, so just shoot me an email about that and I can direct you to those resources. And I would say, by and large, the majority of our students who do the MPP program are not necessarily looking to go on to a PhD program, it's not intended to be a PhD prep, it's intended to be a professional program helping students prepare for a career. We have a handful of students who do go on to a PhD program, typically not straight out of their graduate program, but maybe a couple of years later, because at some point along the way, they found that spark that they were really interested in a career related to research, in academia. But that is definitely the minority of folks that do that PhD route. But you're gonna develop skills in the MPP program that would obviously be beneficial in a PhD program, you're gonna develop statistical analysis skills and writing skills that are gonna help you along that process, but it's not the focus of the program, if you will.

0:36:08.8 Mohamed: Thanks. That answers my questions. Thanks.

0:36:13.7 BS: Perfect.

0:36:25.8 CW: Okay, I don't think... Do we have any other questions in the chat or anyone wanting to unmute themselves? Okay, wonderful. Well, this has been a very informative discussion, I hope. As you think about applying and put your application materials together, I noticed that Beth has put her email in the chat, I encourage you to reach out if you have any additional questions about the admissions process, and we're very very excited about the possibility of joining us. Beth, I'm gonna turn it over to you for any kind of closing pieces of advice or thoughts as we close out the session.

0:37:17.3 BS: Thank Celeste, I appreciate it. So I just wanna say thank you to Christie and Cindy and John and Celeste for being here today. The end of the semester's always a really busy time, and so I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to join us for this. We do have one more webinar this semester. Next Tuesday, our Graduate Career Services office is gonna do a session about the services that they provide, and I hope that you'll join us if that's of interest to you. You may have noticed in the slide show that we have a limited number of application fee waivers that we're able to offer for folks that are able to submit their Master's application early by December 17th, I think is the date, 19th.

0:38:04.7 BS: So if you're interested in that, there's information on our website. And if you have any questions, our fspp-admissions@umich.edu mailbox is kind of your first line of defense, so don't hesitate in any way to shoot us an email, we'll be happy to answer those questions. So other than that, thanks to our guests, thanks to our panelists, and I hope you all have a wonderful day. Thanks.

0:38:33.4 CW: Thank you, Beth.

0:38:33.8 John: Thanks so much.

0:38:35.0 CW: Yes.

0:38:35.2 BS: Bye, guys.

0:38:35.3 CW: John and Cindy and Christie, appreciate it. Take care everyone. Be well.