Yes or no come to order I want to welcome everyone to this morning's hearing on welfare and poverty in America the great American poet Walt Whitman wrote quote what a devil our poverty how many desires how many aspirations after goodness and true I'm many noble thoughts loving wishes to words our fellas beautiful and mentioning Snodgrass crust and under that heel crushed under the heel without remorse or applause. I think everyone here shares Mr Whitman's sentiments about the questions and remorseless nature of poverty and what may have we may have some of the great disagreements on how best to address this issue all of us have an interest in trying to find more ways to flexibly and efficiently alleviate poverty in America today's hearing what attempt to provide some clarity around issues of poverty the effect it has on children and families in the United States and the role that the federal programs particularly the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program currently play in mitigating fatherly poverty is a critical challenge for our nation and far too often children end up being the primary victims recent official poverty statistics reveal that one out of every 5 children in the end 9 states lives in poverty that's pathetic and some argue that the problem is even more ride spread but regardless of the frequency of we know that poverty greatly increases the risk for a number of negative outcomes among our children in some communities a cycle of deep poverty persists generation after generation often often these families live below the radar unseen by many. Day to day life for families in deep poverty is front of difficulty and constant stress to make a bad situation worse and worse this unending toxic stress often leads to a number of then well and physical health issues unfortunately there is no easy solution to addressing issues associated with poverty policymakers have been arguing for years about the best way to address poverty for a long time programs which provided cash assistance to women and children did little to encourage work and in many cases perpetuated the cycle of poverty history showed us that the best remedy to poverty and especially the cycle of poverty is a well paying job and I believe that most people in poverty do want to be gainfully employed. They also record recognize have been that in many cases individuals face significant barriers to successful employment that can be difficult to surmount the welfare reforms in the $1990.00 S. which transitioned welfare from an individual entitlement into a capped funding stream that produced mixed results the number of families on welfare has declined dramatically going from the peak of 5100000 in 1904 to 1600000 in 2015 However the poverty rate in 2014 was nearly the same as the ones prior to welfare reform many families who are eligible for assistance for 10 of. Do not receive. Oftentimes states do not engage hand of recipients in robust activities designed to help them obtain and keep the job the town of benefits up is very small ranging from only 170 dollars to 923 dollars a month for a family of 3 however while that may seem like a relatively small amount for a family the federal government still spends billions of dollars in a tent to address poverty each year in 10 of them the federal government and the state spent nearly $30000000000.00 in fiscal year 2014 Unfortunately the smallest expenditure was directed toward the work program activities while the largest expenditure was spent on what states report as quote other expenditures and. There is no definitive definition of what these other expenditures are that we do know that nearly $11000000000.00 are spent on them each year and despite these clear issues with the program prior efforts to reform plan to have not been successful I think it's fair to say that many in both the left and the right would agree although for different reasons that 10 of the federal government's welfare flagship is in need of reform from 2001 to to reauthorize and reform to have center John Breaux from Louisiana and I spearheaded the so-called tri partisan. Unquote proposal to reform to they became the basis of then Chairman Grassley is pride bill which in a disappointing display of partisanship was ultimately filibustered by the Democratic minority several years ago I wrote a letter to President Obama indicating my willingness and desire to work with him on welfare reform that letter has never been answered but the president. What is more of the above and ministrations never put forward a proposal to reauthorize Tanna Instead this administration has attempted to bypass the Congress and create regulatory schemes not authorized under the statute in order to undermine keep teachers of welfare reform including the work requirement and child support enforcement. In other words welfare programs and into villages they are designed to help and become just another fun in the endless partisan conflict between the abundant ministration and Republicans in Congress I think this is unfortunate and that is precisely the reason why so many people are skeptical about any progress being made on poverty and welfare in the near future unfortunately until the administration adopts a different posture with regard to these programs I'm afraid to discuss this is and will continue to be well founded However we do things differently here in the Senate Finance Committee even if the administration continues to double down on an unproductive position I believe we need to continue to explore issues associated with probably keep searching for ways to improve welfare in this country that in my view is the best way to keep moving forward the reforms to 10 if need so badly that is why we're here today I look forward to a red bus discussion of these important issues and Senate Senator Wyden comes I will interrupt whatever we're doing to have his opening remarks. Now let me take a few minutes just to introduce our distinguished panel of witnesses 1st we will hear from Dr Pamela the press to my saying that. Thoughts are labor economists and senior fellow for the income and Benefits Policy Center at the Urban Institute she has worked for the past 2 decades on research regarding low wage labor markets and barriers to work among disadvantaged populations Dr low priced as a nationally known. Expert on and welfare and Policy Research as well as coauthor author of the book Leaving welfare employment and wellbeing of families that left welfare in the post entitled An era. Aretha Jackson a veteran and Tanner percipient Mr Jackson was born in Prince George's County. Maryland and grew up in the West Indies team she joined the US regular Army Reserves immediately after graduating from high school and 2 years later was released from active duty on a pregnancy discharge she later joined the D.C. Army National Guard where she served for Ms Jackson rejoined the U.S. Army and served in Iraq she suffers and important she offers an important perspective to this panel as a single mother of 2 a prior 10 a percipient in Maryland D.C. and I don't know why as well as having experienced some listeners twice before in her life she is a disabled veteran and currently in her 2nd year of training as a veteran service representative for the V.A. in Philadelphia she is a graduate of Charmin University of Honolulu. associate professor at the University of Michigan School of Law Sidney School of Social Work and the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy Dr Shafer's recent work explores rising levels of extreme poverty in the U.S. the impact of snap on material hardships and barriers to to unemployment insurance faced by low and earning workers Dr safer is also cough 3rd $2.00 a day living on almost nothing in America finally we will hear from John Pierpoint Pierpont executive director at Utah's Department of Workforce Services since December 2012 Mr Pierpont oversees a 1500000000 dollar budget and a department tasked with administrative federal and state programs including workforce development eligibility services public assistance programs and unemployment insurance Mr Potter's over 20 years of experience with Workforce Services serving previously as the deputy director eligibility services division director and leading the department's largest service area under Mr Mr Pierpont direction the department of saved over $33000000.00 He is a graduate of the University of Utah and a dedicated public servant so I want to thank each of you for being willing to appear here today for your diligent work in the service of you've rendered as well as and with what is your willingness to testify and answer questions today each of you will give your testimony in the order in which you were introduced and I'd like to remind you to please limit your initial remarks to 5 minutes that will have some time for questions Dr the press Please proceed with your opening statement. Thank you my name is Pamela Prasad I'm a senior fellow and labor economist there of an institute and economic and social policy research organization the views I present today here are my own. I'd like to make the following points today 1st the type of program is increasingly playing a smaller role in addressing poverty even for the most needy the 2nd many poor mothers who are not receiving town of are also not working 3rd there are solutions to bring these families out of poverty I discussed 2 1st improving access to town of and 2nd investing in these mothers skills to improve their opportunity to work talent caseload have declined and remain low as the chairman said in the last 15 years 10 of case loads of fallen families today over the same time period the percent of families in poverty that has grown only about one quarter of families in poverty received tons of benefits in 10 states fewer than 10 percent of families in poverty receive 10 of benefits many families eligible for these benefits don't receive them the town of participation rate the number of families receiving kind of assistance relative to the number eligible for benefits has declined from one 3rd of all families eligible for time to receive these benefits by comparison the participation rate for SNAP was 83 percent in 2012 the low participation rate in town it should be cause for concern 10 of eligibility rules are such that only very poor families in most states well below the poverty line are eligible for these benefits even as town of 6 to move families from benefits receipt to self-sufficiency families in need should be able to access this assistance. In addition the share of single mothers who are not working and not receiving tan it has increased over time this increase shows not only that kind of is failing to reach many eligible families but those families are not working the aim of the kind of program and the main avenue out of poverty while some of these mothers have exhausted kind of benefits many have never received have why are so many many poor families not receiving time of benefits well families with accurate information about the program have difficulty accessing the benefits some others don't know that they might be eligible or have misinformation about what is required many of you have tried to get kind of found the process difficult programs had long wait times required multiple visits last paperwork and intrusive questions finally some mothers lost benefits after hitting time limits but they were still unable to find work why are so many poor single mothers without work if these mothers could find jobs and overcome challenges to keeping those jobs their circumstances would no doubt be improved they have difficulty finding and sustaining work for many reasons including lack of access to child care and reliable transportation physical and mental illness and low skill levels roughly a 3rd have less than a high school education further there are few jobs available in many of the communities in which these poor mothers and children live what can we do to help families in poverty who do not have cash assistance or earnings 1st we can help families access to the town of program should work to correct misinformation misunderstanding and increase incentive for states to improve access at the federal and state level there are examples from other programs of ways to streamline access that provide lessons for improvements to time however as the chairman noted Tanis benefits are low in many states and are temporary So while important time if we see alone is not the answer to helping families move out of poverty. work work is the path to a better life for the majority of parents and their children and poor single mothers are no exception rigorous evidence from studies of a number of different employ in play men in training programs shows significant improvements in employment and earnings are possible even for families with significant work challenges we need to make changes to town policies that encourage greater spending by town of programs on work related activities the amount of funds spent per case is far below the cost approach of programs that have been demonstrated to improve work in earnings for poor low skill families in addition we should better integrate kind of work programs with the broader publicly funded workforce system in practice in many states that's not been the case the workforce investment opportunity act includes movement in this direction federal policymakers need to reduce obstacles in town of policy to aid this integration in conclusion one of the importance excesses of U.S. policy in fighting poverty is the movement to make work pay for low wage workers there into income tax credit snap and other programs with millions of people out of poverty however for poor women without work or work based safety net is of limited assistance investing in ways to improve the work prospects of poor single mothers through the town of program and other publicly funded workforce programs is an important goal improving access to tonic for these poor mothers is another important goal Thank you Miss Jackson were to your post movie no. I'll share my hat ranking member white in other distinguished members of the committee My name is Aretha Jackson I was one of Prince George's County Maryland I grew up in the projects of Washington D.C. I am a graduate of difficult be a public schools I served in the United States Army Army Reserves the District of Columbia Army National Guard and I have an associates of Arts degree in the broads I graduated. With my bachelor's in of Arts in psychology I have struggled with poverty my entire life I have been homeless twice in my life a single parent of 2 I have received 10 of assistance for needy families a number of times in Mosul states including Hawaii and the District of Columbia I am a disabled veteran Karalee in my representative in the pinch him and him is management center at the Department of Veterans Affairs in Philadelphia Pennsylvania my personal experiences with Turner with the turn of program varies based on the time the place in the regulations the one thing that remained consistent was the negative added to a most of the individuals there worked as examiners the attitude was one of Syr Sapir your T.. As you know the program has evolved over the years I 1st started receiving the receiving welfare in 1991 it was not difficult to get food stamps and has assistance the housing assistance program in D.C. help me with my security deposit and furniture for my 1st apartment the program focused on getting my basic needs met which allow me to focus on my check out and getting back into the workforce in 2001 after getting pregnant with my son I quit my job and reapply for public assistance this time in Maryland the program in Maryland told me of all the regulations and requirements I was to meet but did not offer a plane or Paxson to accomplish these unrealistic goals because my house foreclosed I had to move back in with my mother in Washington D.C. thus my case in Maryland was close at opening a 10 of case with the district I was in rolled in a resume writing class in the programs back then in 2001 were OK I returned to work after 2008 and after September the 11th. In 2003 my mom put my children and me out and we lived in Tipperary housing Bolling Air Force Base and then moved to housing in Fort Myers a few months later I was homeless again I was not equipped to help myself or anyone else at that time. In 2006 Mary in realistic in the United States Army but duty because my family care plan failed once again I found myself unemployed and simpering in need of Temporary Assistance for Needy Families this time I was a whole why and the program was totally different I was required to balance here 30 hour was per week after completing workshops to help me build a resume improve interviewing techniques conduct job search and the GO sheet salaries I wrote in college and was allowed to attend class in lieu of volunteer work after graduating college I moved back to D.C. and applied for the clinical psychology program in Argosy University in Roslyn the genius this is where I learned that I was experiencing P.T.S.D. anxiety and depression. I filled a very important players and was removed from the program once again I needed help this time the 10 of program was different from every other time I was required to attend America works a Washington D.C. Now order to keep receiving my assistance Americal works is an organization that assists individuals in find the employment but this program also helps in a way no other program hands the employees at America Works help they help me to see myself as a productive person again I was able to share personal information with Jennifer to other that kept me from committing suicide and together we were able to get me the services I needed from the V.A. employers employers visit America work sweetly weekly they interview candidates and hire people all of the time there's a glory bill in the lobby for individuals they get a job to ream every time the bill went all of you could feel the joy in the air Jennifer was tough on all of us at the same time she showed that she cared the information and partnership America works provide it help me to obtain full time employment with the Department of Veterans Affairs 10 of programs across the nation need assistance if we have more organizations like America works a Washington D.C. People will be more willing to return to work thank you for your time and I look forward to your questions with a humorous works and. Turn to you. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today in 2010 my colleague Catherine Eden a qualitative researcher of American poverty for over 2 decades begin to encounter more and more families in conditions that were strikingly different from what she had seen a decade and a half earlier these families didn't just have too little cash to live on they often had no cash at all and while some claim benefits like snap to Eden it seemed the absence of cash permeated every aspect of their lives have the number of American households with children surviving on virtually no cash increase even I look participation which yields the largest estimate of income among poor families and as of 2011 we found that in any given month there were $1500000.00 households with $3000000.00 children reporting cash incomes of no more than $2.00 per person per day up we examine numerous other data sources too in all painted a consistent story of worsening conditions faced by our nation's poorest families how do families end up in such extreme circumstances and what are the consequences in search of answers we sought out families who are experiencing extreme poverty in different parts of the country and we've published our results in a book 2 dollars a day a clear theme emerge from our research families we met in vision them's the insults 1st and foremost as workers Ray McCormick of Cleveland says my dad raised me that you work for everything you have and then we asked families to imagine a better life the near universal response was that they would be working in a job with stable full time hours paying $10.00 to $12.00 an hour yet devotion to work is not enough to shield these families from spells living on virtually nothing the labor market they compete in is unforgiving parents can apply for dozens upon dozens of jobs to no avail and when they do find work it is often in the service sector where they must manage considerable instability. Jennifer Hernandez in Chicago had been hunting for work for 10 months while living in homeless shelters with her 2 children and when she finally landed a position at a small family cleaning business at 1st she liked the work it included cleaning vacant apartments and often buildings but as the Chicago winters said in the work load shifted mainly to foreclosed homes general Jennifer reports at these homes had no power no working lights no heat the cleaning crew never knew what to expect a crack house lack of running water meant that Jennifer's team would bring their own in buckets but it would quickly turn pitch black and off they would go to a neighbor's home or the nearest gas station to refill and carry the heavy buckets back to the job breathing in cold air Jennifer's immune system weekend she caught viruses and passed them on to her kids as she called in sick more frequently her boss Mark her is unreliable and her hours and paycheck plummeted she had a few months left of guaranteed housing a benefit she received from the shelter when she got work she decided to quit her job so she could get well and look for the next one it took how long would it take to find the next sometimes unstable relationships lead to job loss Rima Cormack insists that this shift at a local Wal-Mart were the best part of her week outside of the time she got with her 2 year old to Zahra when her uncle George and Aunt Camilla were out of the Cleveland home they'd shared in just 6 months she had been named cashier of the month twice because she had this ability to memorize the 4 digit bar codes of popular produce items she would read the bar codes into a recording device and set it to play on repeat as she slept my subconscious did the job she says but one day she climbed into George's pickup and the gas life flashed on she had spent her entire paycheck on rent groceries and diapers and given George 50 dollars for gas to take the truck to work yet he had emptied the tank over the weekend recalled her manager in a panic could anyone help her out and her manager replied that if she couldn't get to work she shouldn't bother coming on. None of the families in our study thought of Canada is a viable lifeline when we asked Madonna Harris a mother of one living in Chicago family homeless shelters in Chicago if she consider applying she told us they just aren't giving that out anymore after a month without a job or a McCormick finally went down to the welfare office she reports that a caseworker told her Honey I'm sorry there are just so many needy people we don't have enough to go around if a family access those programs like snap Do they really need cash beyond the high rates of material hardships we saw the best evidence that cash matters is the links to which families will go to generate just enough to buy decent clothes at a thrift store or stay in their home for one more night just look at Compton and Tennessee donate their blood plasma for $30.00 up to twice this week as often as the law will allow when we match her plasma cells or her family's only source of cash income after the procedure is over just because I get tired especially if my iron is down and I get like really tired she has an obvious indentation in the crease of her elbow a small scar from giving plasma so much which we saw over and over again across the country the families we met very much subscribe to the American ideals although sometimes they didn't have the resources to reach it they want to work in a decent job they want to safe place to live and they want to do right by their children the more we can align policy in programs to help them meet these goals the more we as a country will have done right by Jessica entrap us Jennifer and Madonna and Ray whatever assistance I can provide to you with this goal in mind I met your service thank you so much Mr Purple from you know here. Chairman Hatch Senator Wyden and members of the Senate Committee on Finance thank you for the opportunity to address you I want to start with a brief story if you months ago I had the opportunity to visit with a mother named Melody melody grew up in poverty and remains there today along with her 2 children. I was moved by Melody is strong desire and motivation for finding a path out of poverty and providing increased stability and opportunity for her sons but it was something that she said later that reveals the importance of Utah's efforts to do crease the number of children caught in the cycle of poverty she said there are a lot of brilliant minds lost in poverty. We have come to learn that even in Utah where our economy is incredibly strong there are thousands of families still facing barriers to self-reliance and lost in poverty Utah's economic success is allowing us to focus on families struggling to break free from the cycle of poverty passed from one generation to the next we refer to this cycle as intergenerational poverty. In 2012 the intergenerational poverty Mitigation Act was adopted to address the needs of struggling families the act the sting which is between 2 types of poverty situational poverty and intergenerational poverty recognizing that for the majority of people utilization of public assistance is a brief and temporary but for others no amount of support leads to self-reliance. The Act also requires the Department of Workforce Services to release an annual report analyzing data regarding families experiencing intergenerational poverty. The report focuses on 4 areas of Child Wellbeing family economic stability early childhood development education and health the level of research and analysis contained in the end report is unprecedented we have gathered data across multiple state agencies revealing correlations between intergenerational poverty and childhood risk factors. In each area of childhood wellbeing children experiencing intergenerational poverty are struggling they have limited access to high quality early childhood programs experience poor academic outcomes their parents are only sporadically attached to the labor force and they are experiencing much higher rates of abuse and neglect relative to other children. The data contained in the report is utilized by the state's intergenerational Welfare Reform Commission to develop evidence based solutions to reduce the number of children living in intergenerational poverty. The commission includes the 5 executive directors from the state agencies serving to serving the needs of Utah is vulnerable families the agencies work to improve coordination of services and programs share data and evaluate internal policies through the members serve in the governor's cabinet including myself by aligning programs sharing data our agencies are breaking down the silos that often arise and government by focusing on families we are supporting their efforts to build a brighter future for their children these efforts are not leading to new services or massive additional programs that encourage more government spending rather we are more effectively leveraging resources already in place in our communities and across both the public and private sectors this alignment removes barriers for families working toward economic independence without burdening taxpayers with additional costs. I would like to briefly provide one example of program alignment that is our 2 generation test program called next generation kids as a part of our research we have valuated our Tanev cash assistance program which focuses exclusively on employment of the parent however we have found that adults often cannot truly be successful when the needs of their children are not being met as a result we modified our program so that while we are engaging the parents to get them employed we are also ensuring that those parents are meeting the basic needs of their children all the next generation kids has only been in existence for one year it is improving the lives of families like mellow days who is also a program participant Utah is committed to this effort we are taking the research into local communities across our state and empowering local leaders to take the 1st steps. The research clearly shows the impact of this unique form of poverty which is why we need a unique approach to understand it and address it Utah believes strongly in the potential of individuals like mellow day she is one of those brilliant minds lost in poverty we cannot afford to ignore those brilliant minds we must empower these families to succeed and equip their children to Xscape poverty which in turn will allow our economy to flourish we will continue to learn and apply new information to our methods and we will hope to share our successes and failures with other states working to empower families to achieve their greatest potential Thank you. Well thank you we appreciate. Your testimony here today it's very helpful to us and let me start with you Director. And thank you for being here today and all of you and for all the good work you're doing here in Utah and I listen with great interest to your description of what it took to get this intergenerational poverty initiative underway and I would note that this effort began as a partnership between a liberal have a good care and crime Crompton and a conservative state senator Stuart Reed I think we can all take lesson from this but partisan alliance I was particularly interested in the next generation kids program what are your plans with. With the next generation kids program moving forward and what are you learning from this test program and are you planning on expanding it. Thank you Senator Hatch we started our next generation kids project in an area of our state called Ogden Utah we targeted augur and because they had a higher concentration of intergenerational poverty families in that area we started with 32 families. Tried to design the program to mirror what we've learned with the data research and we've been working in this particular area for almost a year now so we're summarizing what has been working and not working in regards to the initial years period our plan is to continue to learn from the data learn from the strategies that are in place with those families we've expanded we actually it's a unique approach because where we have our staff actually in James Madison Elementary in Ogden and it gives us an opportunity to interact with the parents more frequently and the kids to ensure that the kids are doing well in school that the basic needs are being met and so we're right there in the school which I think we've learned a lot just by being amongst the kids there were about. To expand to an area in Salt Lake City called curtains and this particular extension of the next generation kids will focus on middle school kids so we're trying to learn from the elementary school kids and now the middle school age kids as we continue to work towards affective ways of serving the families one more area that we're about to move to in January is an area called Glendale and Utah and will be actually in a head start facility there to engage that program and how best to serve those families in that setting so we're learning a lot we've seen some successes and we've seen some failures we've seen some people drop out of the program some others we've seen many get employed we're seeing some stability with the children so we'll continue to learn and that's the idea is using the data learn from the experiences of our interaction with really multiple partners this is not a government thing only it includes the schools it includes community partners there's a real collaboration going on in Ogden in those other 2 schools that I think will help us determine what are the best approach is so that we can succeed for the children and help support the adults thank you Jackson and let me ask you a question I want to thank you for your service to our country and for your courage in coming here and telling your story to the. Basement Testament you've had experiences with well 1st of them and that it wasn't until you were referred to America works that you were new to around if you'd met these vets but I've interviewed Can you elaborate on what was so different about America works particularly Can you describe what made this tumor so helpful and effective. Well. With America works they were. Organization when you when they addressed you as an individual everything they didn't they didn't they didn't treat you as though you were just somebody on welfare or somebody looking for a handout they didn't treat you like it was their resources that they were given to you what happened was they call they show interest in me at that time when when I was required to go to America works I was I wasn't interested in going I had just flocked out of graduate school I was depressed and I didn't want to I didn't want to live anymore but because of my children and I when as a matter of fact one of my children told me mine you should just go just go and then when I did go I was able to come back and tell them you know I met this lady name is Miss Jin Jennifer tiller and she helped me to get the services that I need in D.C. from the V.A. because I had moved from Hawaii back to D.C. and America Works is now I joined the military straight out of high school so I never knew how to apply for a job outside the military everything that I've done has been military back and forth active duty of active duty so we're fair but when I went to America works they looked at my Jennifer had a teen and the team looked at my resume looked at my experiences over the years in they highlighted it and told me what they seen based upon what I had accomplished but I would see to it myself so that they know may America works different from everywhere else that I have gone is they help me to see me as a productive individual and they help me to implement that to the point where I was able to actually obtain employment or thank you for my time. Senator Coons are next on THE LIST Thank you Mr Chairman thank you for having this very important hearing this is a subject that's long overdue for reconsideration. I think one of the goals of for welfare system ought to be to. Equip people to become self-sufficient and that anything that detracts from that I think ought to be discouraged I also think that in addition the we ought to make sure that people who have a responsibility to support their own families are doing that as well and I know that for Canada for example. The Child Support Enforcement is an important part of what that program. Requires and I happen to have had some experience as attorney general collecting child support for more than a 1000000 children who are not being provided the financial support from their own parents that they legally are entitled to and they need in order to. Hopefully not live in poverty. I also think we need to look at. Further encouraging work requirements and I would guess that even on a volunteer basis Miss Jackson you're working on a volunteer basis helped equip you with skills that made you more employable or made you more attractive to prospective employees employers is that correct that's correct yes. And I'm just curious you said how long would you serve in the military I did a total of 80 years OK And did you a did you experience the problems you testified to while you were in the military or only once you separated from the military while I was in the military so you were you were qualifying for welfare benefits even though you were receiving pay as an active duty military no. I was active duty and that I wanted a D.C. National Guard in the reserves so I was a. Week in a war in OK well we all know that those weekend warriors are much more than weekend warriors now that. So I would. I just have a question for some of the. For the other 3 witnesses if you care to comment on it Tina Fey has as I said the Child Support Enforcement or financial responsibility for the parents. But that is on doesn't apply to any other welfare benefit to my knowledge you see any. Problems or difficulties in the extending that responsibility to parents to help provide for their own families by making that one of the requirements of. Welfare benefits maybe Mr Pierpont you can start. Certainly I think that Child Support Enforcement is an important aspect of. Individuals becoming self-reliant so yes it's specific to 10 if in many cases if there is an opportunity to expand that to other entitlement public assistance type programs I think that would be beneficial to that individual that's trying to balance work as well as supporting their families so I would be in support of moving in that direction Dr Shafer. I think in my opinion I would start where you senator started with your comments was that with the jobs. Coming out of our research into dollars a day expanding economic opportunity and expanding the number of jobs through subsidized jobs creation I think would actually go a long way to improving the ability of families to care for their own children my coauthor knows more about child support I know that. You know I would be happy to connect with her on that but I think the best thing we could do to make sure especially fathers and resident fathers pay child support is to improve their access to jobs which they in particular at trouble accessing Dr impress you know I would just add that. As you may know many of the fathers of the children also are very poor and have limited you know funds to pay so child and sportsman and child support enforcement is uncreate incredibly important and fathers should be helping to support their families but there is this conundrum of you can't you know get but you get money where there isn't money and so I mainly would like to make sure that it doesn't adding something like that doesn't make people in aus able or unable to get something like snap because it is so important for their family but I want to add roadblocks While I understand the importance of transporting Forsman is German I have to I'll just close on this I had the experience of getting out of an airplane in El Paso Texas and a gentleman came up to me and said You put me in jail. And I didn't know what to expect after that statement. But what he told me is that his wife did not his former wife denied him visitation with his children in exchange for not requiring him to pay child support and it strikes me that those children were association with both parents and the financial support of both parents that they have a legal right to accept and so as a consequence frequently when parents don't support their own children then the taxpayer has to pick up pick up the tab but actually the story ended well because he told me that once we took him to court. And the judge ordered him to pay child support he also ordered his wife former wife to let him see the kids and he told me we're back together again as a family so happy ending to that story good glad to hear the center wouldn't. Fehrman would take your THINK THINK you. Very much Mr Chairman I want to apologize to all our guests we also are dealing with the budget agreement on the floor which is very important to a whole host of domestic programs and I think was the judgment that we have Chairman Hatch here and I would go to the floor and I think to some extent will be shuttling back and forth I'm going to spare all of you my opening statement and just ask you know kind of one question the late President Reagan said and I think it really says it all that the very best program the best program in this space is a job that was the judgment of a conservative Republican who has looked doing and has been for literally decades for the philosophical kind of underpinnings of what was important to the party I gather before I came man you all have. Had some discussion about employment and I would just like to you and perhaps we can start out with the authors of this wonderful book that I enjoyed reading we could start with What do you think the best way is for people to get these jobs these entry level positions and then how do you evaluate the programs because you're been in a variety of these programs in the in the past and I think that if since the chairman's been kind enough after I was out and missed a fair amount to give me this chance to ask 11 question I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that to start with what is the best path for people to get these jobs in the private economy and how best Should we go about it as legislators trying to evaluate which programs work and which don't when we just go right down the line. Sure thanks so as I referred to in my testimony there are a number of rigorous evaluation of different programs many focused on start with the 1st part of the question what's the best path for people to get the jobs and then we'll talk about the evaluation Yes So the best top to get the job right. For the individuals who have tried been out there in the labor market maybe had sporadic work and lost it is to get assistance from programs in as as Miss Jackson said in how to get prepared to look for work how to best do that and to gain the necessary skills to be able to get that job so having assistance and programs that can help people with that so that they can go out and get the job that's that's the best way is is there a program that you think is one of the best models we should be looking at there are there are a number of really give one or 2 programs so. So there's a number of school programs that are dealing in what we call sectoral space like looking at industries and trying to work with industries and employers in those industries to get people low skilled people into jobs and apply in the door there is an evaluation of 3 of these sectoral programs one is Instituto in Chicago doing wonderful work in helping people get better skilled jobs J.D.S. in Boston another one that worked to help people so there are programs that are in America works is a program that that Mr actually mention there are programs that are doing this and really being successful others now. OK I think the 1st thing there we need to address is build a self efficacy because when we're unable to see ourselves equipped or able we're stuck in our environment the world is not where we actually live we live only in our communities and in our environments because we're not involved with the workforce and with the outside world per se so I think starting there is very important in the eye the reason I say to is because I believe that's where America work started with me. Jen and her crew they did offer all the resources to help me get a job but has she not dealt with of me and my personal issues not like us I colleges or whatever other they did have a few neat training. Has she not dealt with that I still would not have been employed very good to share. I would concur with what's already been said but I would also just say coming out of my experience writing $2.00 a day I firmly believe we need to do something to increase the number of job opportunities for people at the very bottom the last data that I looked like there were that there was a 2000000 jobs shortage between just the number of people who are actively seeking work in the number of jobs available and that's exacerbated especially in these communities that have high levels of chronic poverty so we need to do things that I think we need to have public and private partnerships we have some experience with this just recently the federal government through the town of emergency fund sponsored a short term program that allowed states to subsidize positions in a very short term we created it was very popular with employers it was very popular bipartisan with states and so I think a program that both creates positions for folks who cannot compete in the in the in the private sector itself with a lot of wrap around services that can can and can help with self efficacy is what's really it's going to take to put a dent in that when I look at the New Hope program out of Milwaukee it did just that there was a guaranteed temporary job that folks could access as well as a lot of services to help them be successful in to your question I would say. I think these types of programs might have modest effects on earnings but we start to see effects in all sorts of other domains criminal justice right there's a program in New York that paid for itself with X. offenders coming out simply by reducing recidivism which is of course very expensive in New Hope actually we saw a decade after randomized trials so this is a randomized trial and 80 percent increase in marriage rates among never married mothers single mothers at the time that they enter the program now I haven't seen a marriage promotion that gets an 80 percent increase. Very very high popping figure so I think we really need to look broadly with these programs not just on long term earnings but what does it do to mental health Jennifer and it says it eloquently when I have a job I have a sense of purpose and I think it's what a lot of us think about our jobs and so I think we should think that poor families you know feeling exactly the same way my time's up The Chairman How much would be passed over Utah fell. The question is the best path forward for many of these individuals Utah is in a great position with a 3.6 percent unemployment rate in a 3.9 percent job growth rate one of the most diverse economies in this country so the opportunity for our families or maybe in a better position than some of the other states certainly understanding the labor market and the demands of business and positions that are available and we currently have in our system our labor exchange system about 25000 job openings in Utah across the state so I understand in the labor market what the demand is certainly the high school GED component of people obtaining jobs is an important piece if you haven't received a high school diploma completing your GED skills training has been mentioned making sure that we're training people in the skill set that's going to get them employed and an occupation that will be self-sustaining and long term and have opportunity to grow within a in an organization I think connecting to the workforce system more in a unique position where can I fit in the workforce estimates under Department of Workforce Services in Utah and that's an important piece of the puzzle the workforce system is successful in attaching recipients to that system I think is an important piece for states to consider one program that has shown great success in Utah it's called work success and it's a. Intensive program that requires recipients as a part of the work success program to be a part of that 40 hours a week it's about networking it's understanding the labor market social. Media how to build a resume how to interview to really prepare and then go out and try to pursue opportunities for an interview and then get your foot in the door in a in a company so work success has about a 70 percent placement rate currently in Utah and then lastly I think a retention component How do we keep people in jobs and to do that when they have lot life struggles how do we best support them so that they retain their jobs and not find a lot of transition or turnover. Lastly there's a difference between situational and intergenerational poverty and I talked about this in my testimony it's a different set of strategies for families that are in generational poverty situational folks typically can get attached the labor market relatively quickly with the rules that we provide with intergenerational family there sporadically attached the labor market so that's what we're trying to learn with our next generation kids project in our state to learn really what helps the adults but also focusing on the children we have to help the children prepare themselves to be adults and successful adults in our in our states and what are those key things that are outlined in our report that you have to make sure that the kids are well equipped to be successful as they grow up and then become adults and attach themselves to the labor market thanks to you all think it's and. I've been called to the floor so she would take over and under benefits next to me. Senator at least for me for leaving early but I've got some very very important duties of so just to work in the today just talk with we just let me say that I'm very appreciative of this testimony it's been very helpful each one of you has been a tremendous help to us I'm very proud of you to offer what we've been able to thank you Senator. Senator Bennett thank you thank you Mr Chairman and I want to think Chairman Hatch from. Much for holding this hearing it's a rarity in this Congress that we focus on these issues so delighted with the witnesses that are here I have one suggestion that Senator Wyden at the outset about what we might do that's not a government program to help with this issue which is we could raise the minimum wage in this country to have a single mother of 2 kids working for $7.25 still be below the poverty line because we have allowed the minimum wage to collapse of the last with your permission I'd like to submit to the record a piece in today's political newspaper by the lead directly at Cosco calling on other companies to raise the minimum wage I share your view and it's in the record thank you note I've appreciated that and now to the panel and I'll start maybe with you Dr Shafer all across the country is as chairman had said today one in 5 children are living in poverty which according to at least one report is far higher than any other developed country in the world except for Romania and about 40 percent of children it's estimated will be poor at least one year before they turn 18 that's about $29000000.00 of today's children in the United States these numbers are staggering they're not obviously just numbers it's human lives in what we think of as the greatest country in the world poverty is not something in this country that exists only for a handful of children in some cities in America the experiences of children in poverty and the challenges they and their families face are almost commonplace today. And that should be unacceptable to everybody in this building and the politics that are so corrosive in this place should be utterly unacceptable when we're facing that kind of challenge as a country and I think to start it's helpful for all of us to understand what it's like for a child to be living in poverty what are their daily experiences what are the common obstacles they must overcome that people in this room and on this panel would never even imagine and I was particularly struck by your account in your book of Tabitha living in the Mississippi Delta an area of the country my wife is from. And I wondered whether you might be willing to share her story with with the panel today. Well I can say among the families that we study do there visit the very poorest of the poor I would say actually share with poor families more generally. Just a striking instability in life instability in jobs so those who are able to get jobs often see fluctuations in the number and timing of work hours that they have that you can imagine makes it hard to. Plan for childcare and then of course the cost of housing has gotten. To be such a crisis point for many poor families we have millions of poor families and children who are spending more than half of their incomes on housing so we saw this incredible residential instability families moving quite constantly and I think being how it's quite precarious Lee in this leaves children vulnerable when we talk about the inner generational transmission of poverty it's been our experience that that happens through the experience of trauma as I think Director Pierpoint pointed to that when you're precariously have sort of doubled up you're more risk if somebody wants to take advantage of you in an often cases there's no one looking out for children so the Mississippi Delta as you pointed out has been. One of the most chronically poor parts of the country for generations and I would say it was our experience. That. The challenges faced by minute these small towns were an order of magnitude worse than we saw in everywhere else and in a big part of that was because the institutions were set to serve the most vulnerable in many cases it off and break broken down so the tablet. As you mentioned grew up or she was from a very large family I think her mother had suffered abuse and. Over the course of her life. And so she knew the constant experience of going hungry often the lights would be sort of out for 2 weeks out of the out of a month and and they'd be hungry for a month so imagine sort of living in the dark 7 kids sort of piled up in a bed at night no lights and going hungry in her own words she said. We asked her what is it like to be hungry and she says it makes you feel like you want to be dead and for a child to experience that I think is is not what should be acceptable in America Miss Jackson if you looked at anything I just got a minute of to vote would the kind of instability Dr Shafer talked about or other perspectives that you might have. As far is as far as what are the experiences that you have living in poverty your children have living in poverty that people on this panel might not even think about. Because they haven't lived the way you have well I came from what I think Mr. Pierpoint described as the generational poverty my mom was 24 when she had me I'm only young his of 7 so she raised 7 children as a single parent and party. She she had dropped out of school but went back and got her degree in became a chef. Once she started work and she was she was at home alive and well happened says. As we put our as we go back to work a single parents that put our kids children home alone so now it's totally different when you don't have those resources of the Lobel in reference to. Being able to have an adult with your town Well you go to work for instance I took a job in Philadelphia so there I wouldn't continue to be unemployed there was a year ago but I have a child just of and school he's here with me today because I don't have family in Philadelphia so I wanted to be here I brought him with me and of course got excused from school but the point is if I was if I had more of a support system and didn't have to take a job in another state you know because most people has been been in that is where I have been or not take a job in a different state to get out of that situation I think me been in the military is the only reason why I had the courage to go to transition from state to state the way I have thank you Mr Jackson thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman I don't know that I've ever done this at a committee hearing but I would just and that is to suggest that people read a book by name and I will allow my I would just ask everybody in this room all of us to to read $2.00 a day I think it puts people in a. Frame of Mind in understanding that most of us that dress like this and have great titles and have been relatively affluent to much of our lives or all of our lives will get an understanding that wouldn't get it's and it's in the tradition of James Agee's book in the 1930 S. Let Us Now Praise Famous Men in the 1960 S. Herrington book about poverty in America and I would urge people to do that and I just want to say a couple of comments about the book itself what struck me what struck me about $2.00 a day more than anything 2 things struck me the 1st thing was how entrepreneurial people who are desperately poor are the woman in this a sippy who had I believe the only freezer in her neighborhood bought Kool-Aid Dixie Cups popsicle sticks. And for $0.50 if I remember Dr Shafer popsicles that she made. The people that sit as used as one of you you are Dr Ian Sattler both of you sat at the bus stop in Cleveland and watched a bus hourly come by discord 6 or center to sell for $30.00 and some had to take iron pills because their plasma would've qualified. Woman you mention and again my hometown I live in the city of Cleveland. For for 105 had the highest number of foreclosures of any zip code in America in 2007 it's better now but not enough better one woman that lived not far from where I love. I live in a nicer neighborhood for sure than she did but she would have a job at Wal-Mart in Parma as you mentioned she was employee or cashier of the week or month. Twice she lost her job because she didn't have the $10.00 to put gas in her truck as it was taken by somebody else as you mentioned the scrappers in Cleveland in Chicago and in many other cities that they get a shopping cart from the local Hine INS or the local. Dave supermarket and look for aluminum cans and look for it abandoned houses in the aluminum or any metals they can get I mean these are incredibly entrepreneurial people so I just bristle as I know this whole panel does because all of you are public servants in your own way from the military to the state of Utah I bristle when I hear people say they don't want to work and they're lazy and they're shiftless and all those vaguely racist sometimes but terrible comments regardless of how you might you might characterize them. But the other part of the book that is much more optimistic is how well the Earned Income Tax Credit works it's not it's not big enough it's not permanent yet the chairman I know very much of the sort of thing just Chairman for a moment anyway he was chairman last year. Senator Wyden I know everybody in this panel wants to make it permanent wants to keep the expansion and do better with the Earned Income Tax Credit and the child tax credit what that can mean for bringing millions as you point out in your book Dr Shafer conductor Eden Here's your co-author of prodding bringing millions out of poverty. Because they were doing the right thing I would echo Senator Bennett's comments about minimum wage Cosco which I would also add a company that I'm not into advertising private sector ventures today but I guess I will cost go has has much less turnover than other large companies that do what they do a big box retailers because they pay better wages they have less turnover they do all that not saying you should shop at Costco instead of Wal-Mart but if there's one near your house anyway. So my question is this when I talk talk I just want you Dr Shafer to talk a little more about work and you've done that but I want to kind of pull it out and I know I've taken most of my 5 minutes but you can take as long as you want that's kind of the rules you're just talk about to the rules you're new you're still relatively new this is it. Became a few years after I did so talk talk just talk about the role of work in people's lives and why you know whatever percent 99 percent of people really do want to work and contribute side just when you were living with these people you saw homes with 20 people in them in Cleveland in Chicago in Johnson City in the Delta just talk about the seriousness of work the necessity to work the intrinsic need to work in the joy of work for so many of these people that are really are entrepreneurial fundamentally in many ways. Well thank you for your kind words about the book and and the endorsement we have heard that our book is is on the depressing side so I would apologize for that but say Senator. Exactly what Senator Brown picked out I think the things one is the I mean this real entrepreneurial. Motivation in a way that you really see to me and it's really I'm an American story of people taking whatever resources they had and and doing what they had that to do right by their children and there's of course always bad actors but you know in in any fear but in this case I think we really just saw that come through it was unfortunate that a lot of the activities that families can generate a little bit of resources for their families actually leave them open to felonies so Martha Johnson who created the story she actually had a whole candy shop in or in her living room. And with the popsicles that she sold for $0.50 to anyone who would come as she bought those resources with her. SNAP card and this I think constitutes at least by the book's a felony so in many cases you would see families that would have to do. Things that broke the law whether it was using their bodies but you know we saw Paul while they're also in Cleveland too they when they had $22.00 people packed into their $1100.00 square foot house and the water got turned off they jury rigged the garbage can under the rain spout to collect the rainwater and that's how they flush the toilet so you know I think there was a lot in there now you mention the T.C. and I would say one thing we really came away in this study was thinking about a litmus test for any policy any program and I think it came out clearly in all of our comments today that our programs for poor families should seek to incorporate them into society whether rather than isolate them from it in this sounds like a simple premise but I want to be clear that as Mr Jackson pointed out the history of welfare policy in this country has been one of of she mean of stigma and of isolation in and I think this sort of drive to work is a part of that people want to be a part of society and sometimes they don't have the resources they don't have the human capital the families that can help them and in those cases I think we just need to have incredible programs like director Pierpont that can help sort of people get the skills and get in in some cases I think we need to create you know more jobs that will relieve the pressure all around but the E I T C does this better than any other program that we have and you don't have to go to the welfare office you don't have to put up with with a caseworker who's looking down at you you go file your taxes it's one of the most American things we do right and Except they look forward to tax time and of course I don't usually but no offense to all of them but. This is you know I think this is something we can build on and I think it's why. Looking for work and looking for a way it's. The more comprehensive way outside of you know a few good examples connect people connect people to jobs and increase economic opportunity that's what families want when we ask them if you're in a year you're doing better what would it look like none of them said I would be on a cash safety net you know Program Now I happen to think we need a functioning cash safety net and an F. in my opinion is wholly failing in its stated purpose but what they would point to is work so for going to start from where people are I think that's where policy should go thank you one brief comes chairman and I appreciate your saying all of that Senator Bennett always mentioned C.T.C. with the I.T.C. I sometimes forget that and I think the importance of always linking them as we talk about permanence as we talk about expansion is we talk about mistakes made in filing and we had a moment last really or this week in the last year and we did were I will not mention a name but there was a I have talked about this at many hearings in that what was the I.R.S. hearing that the that the mistakes and Earned Income Tax Credit are not fraud they're just badly filling out filling out with some errors these these are the applications that I rest needs some authority from us to be able to correct those so in a number of people of my colleagues have called that fraud in the past one senator who would I had heard say fraud is now talking with us about fixing it in a way that it really is the way to do it and I'm encouraged by that that this can be bipartisan as E I T C C T C Thank you we're from the Reagan years on and it's a real opportunity to lift a lot of people out of poverty with showing the kind of respect that we can so thank you so much thank you Senator Senator Brown just before we recognize our colleagues and also want to note the tenor Brown's point with respect to bipartisanship was also highlighted in this last exchange Mr Schaffer many of us who are progressive really the think so highly of your book and we're quoting it we're using it. Talking about it frequently but I think it was noteworthy that Mr Shafer singled out Mr Pierpont and conservative and state it's always been conservative in politics for programs that work so there's a real chance here colleagues to find some common ground as Senator Brown was talking about on the Earned Income Tax Credit and I thought that last exchange with Mr Schaffer praising the folks in Utah for stepping up really highlights the possibilities here sentiment and us thank you Mr Chairman thank you all for your testimony in a now because we had a foreign relations nomination so. I think it's an incredibly important hearing today I don't think we spent enough time on these questions. And I also think while the goals of welfare reform 20 years ago to encourage people to work and move people from welfare to self-sustaining economic freedom were certainly desirable and laudable it seems to me that the end result is a program that has utterly failed to respond to the needs of people receiving. The very help it purports to to accomplish in the past 20 years the number of people receiving cash assistance is down to 26 out of 100 needy families from 68 out of 100 in one $996.00 and because the town of program is not indexed for inflation and has received funding since 1996 resulting in a net loss to states of $300000000.00 a year and because the program isn't tied to overarching economic conditions it can't respond as needed so if you look at them if you look at the graph from where we started in welfare reform and go down even in recessionary periods you don't see a response that would be reasonable to expect. In fact in my state of New Jersey there's been a 25 percent decrease in the number of families helped by Tennyson's 2010 and an unbelievable 80 percent reduction since its exception in 1996 and even during the Great Recession we did not see any uptick so this sharp decline in both the quality and the quantity of assistance we provide to those in need shouldn't come as a major surprise but instead I am concerned that we may see it as the coming attractions for further plans including by some of my colleagues on the other side of their aisle who want the blockbuster goal of block granting the Medicaid program and that to me is a recipe for disaster we have already seen how damaging block grants to states can be for providing basic assistance to those most in need and I think it's absolutely imperative we don't allow the same thing to happen in necessary medical care now you can have innovation. And greater efforts of proven programs that can move to self-sufficiency without necessarily walk renting at the end of the day. This committee has jurisdiction over a wide swath of programs aimed at people in need and they've been referenced here in addition to 10 of the C.T.C. in the I.T.C. and to me that encourages and rewards people to work rather than punishing them for being unable to find work even when Americans who have been gainfully employed can't find work. And so even in those periods where Americans who have been gainfully employed can't find work and maybe were never on any assistance program even in those periods of time we still have an attitude of punishment. And so I think we need to focus on how we reward work and I want to piggy back Dr Shafer on. The comments made by my colleague Senator Brown in your testimony and in your book. You discussed the unifying trait of all families. That you studied in the overwhelming desire to work and to provide for their children. That's totally counter to the myth of the so-called social welfare queen that helped push reform in the ninety's so can you talk a little bit more about the desire what you found of families desire to work and if you think that that desire would lessen if we make structural reforms to Tanna to increase assistance and provide more to struggling families. When there is a transitional period and. How do we best meet that desire the desire to work and to provide for your families. So coming out of out of the schools so sure as well as a school of public policy I was actually struck by a number of our folks who talked about work. Not not specifically using these words but what we found was they were really talking about work as a mental health intervention that when they when they had the resources they were helped with the resources to get work they found that the structure in their life the ability to give meaning and I do think it goes back to this desire to contribute to society and the feeling of. Being worthless are often a result of feeling like you have nothing to contribute right in and work is the defining way that this country. Makes a contribution right it's a way that we all define ourselves and so if you feel cut off from that. Then you really are isolated Now you asked the question about if we if we if we remade some reforms to Tanna would it change that in in my opinion the biggest. Problems with the N F have to do with that. It's tremendous complexity that allows for lots of loopholes from the work requirement there are many many states that have very very small work requirements because they're able to take advantage of loopholes in the law or you know technical details. And also block grant structure the way it is designed puts perverse incentives actually not to invest in programs that that help if the goal of Tenet was actually sort of provide temporary cushion and do away with long term dependency and let you know the states innovate on what kind of work programs they might have I think we failed in that. Regard. At the worst the town of program what it does is actually. Allows states to reallocate substitute or supplant state funding with federal funding so that there is no benefit at all to federal taxpayers that it simply taking money keeping cash assistance caseload low keeping work which putting people to work is expensive you know let's be honest about that but keep those expenses low in in move money into say the foster care system which is in some cases many states are paying for. College scholarships for. Childless people and the parameters by which you can use your tan of black granite is so broad as to just allow a lot of this and frankly fill state budget gaps and you might imagine as you mention as the overall level of resources shrinks with inflation and states continue to be strapped What are the chances they're going to reallocate money back to a program like cash assistance so I think we could make fundamental changes to block grant that would both. Improve the. Improve the ability to be a safety net as as well as improve its ability to help put people to work sort of incentivize putting resources towards that and I think the most comprehensive treatment of this actually was written it's a white paper Tenet is broken which many of you may have seen by Peter Germanicus who was a former White House staffer and goes sort of detail by detail all of the technical details. As he says we got wrong. So in there. Thank you Thunder Man and at center Casey. I thank the ranking member also want to thank the the chairman for calling this hearing. And. It's nice to have a little extra time to with it and I'm I'll take a little bit of extra time but not too much but it's helpful because this is a subject about which we don't debate enough don't spend enough time on I want to start with the New Testament there's. A line in the New Testament where Jesus is quoted as saying. The poor you shall always have with you. I guess over time a much debated line what that means some I guess could interpret it in the context of our our political debates as. Though always be a high number of poor people and that's just the way life is. I think most of us here would interpret it another way and I think the appropriate way. Which is he you're going to have poor people in society and you've got to do something about that you've got to work an actor reduce that number it's especially urgent it comes to children and if you want to talk about a subject that we don't spend enough time on it's this children in poverty Why what can we do about it what were we not doing I did start that both both houses and folks in the House and the Senate both parties aren't doing enough none of us are doing enough on this and certainly not doing as much as the people in front of us don't. Want to thank the panel for your testimony and for your kind of living witness about what this means and what we must do about it Secondly I want to to mention some numbers we've got all kinds of numbers flying around. The the most recent number I've seen for to the for 2014 got a lot of 2013 numbers the 2014 number is about The NE Casey Foundation no relation to me the great foundation the tracks these numbers. They put out a one pager for a number of years now and this is my marked up version of it and broken down into 4 segments just Mr Pierpont just like yours in Utah similar economic wellbeing education health and family community as it relates to children and the green in this chart means that the numbers have gotten better since 2007 to 2008. And that's good and we should highlight one when numbers are getting better unfortunately the numbers that are getting worse are the subject of this hearing. Child poverty worsens 2008 children whose parents lack secure employment worse since 2008. Children not attending preschool that number got worse. Not by a lot percentage wise but a big big number according to them Children not attending preschool than 4400000 across the country so I go through all the number of children living in high power to areas higher children single parents for Families are so the numbers are way up what do we do about it well one thing we can do and I want to ask the panel to give your your point of view on once the top recommendation you would make for us to reduce these numbers that's my question before I do that I want to highlight a bill I'm interesting today the House has a similar version or interest recently Child Poverty Reduction Act basically done what the U.K. did which is just set a target. And figure out a way to to reach the target the U.K. could. Set a child poverty target and resulting policy changes cut their child poverty rate by 50 percent in a decade where our bill would do was would be to. Set a target of reducing the number of children living in poverty by half and goal pursuant to the bill develop a plan develop recommendations as to what's working now and what's not working right now so that's what that's one thing we can do to least set a target and to work towards that but. I'll go right to left and go down the list of well if you had if you had an opportunity to say one thing the Congress of the United States should do what would it be. I don't believe that there's one solution I believe there are several part of what we have done is dug deep into the data to really understand what families are faced with what their challenges are certainly with a keen interest on how the children are doing and there are a couple things that I can highlight as a part of my report that stand out and you mentioned it is access to high quality preschool and afterschool programs preparing kids for kindergarten extended day kindergarten ensuring that they're prepared to succeed in the school system so that's one example another would be access to health care making sure the children have access to dental care and health care screenings our data shows that they're not. Going to Dr every year and how do you best support kids in the in the health area and so there are several others that are in there but certainly I believe this committee as you look at Santa Fe and other programs it's an understanding of how the children are performing how they're doing and a conversation about what needs to be done differently with the programs to include the children in the dialogue Thank you Dr Shafer. Well I have to go with what. We heard from from the families in our in our book which is that I would make a concerted effort to increase economic opportunity at the very bottom I would see if we could make the next generation a jobs generation and I think these types of initiatives should probably be placed based I think they can be done through public and private partnerships and maybe they would be done with with the notion of improving infrastructure of which we have many problems and I think these these types of programs are. Would probably need lots of wrap around services to help place families into jobs and keep them in those jobs that say as they experience crisis points let me just note for the record I was struck by the searing statistic from from your testimony I'm page one as of $2111500000.00 households with $3000000.00 children reporting fashion comes with no more than $2.00 per day per day up from $100.00 up on a 30 percent from 15 years ago so your your data your research shows that since the 10 if was passed as Senator Menendez on one. You got $3000000.00 more kids living in $2.00 a day Yes. That's right up 130 percent and this is consistent across a series of indicators both from household survey data from our administrative Pallies we see a similar increase the number of homeless school children as reported by our schools so I think when you see all of these indicators moving in the right direction you can say pretty clearly that circumstances are getting worse at the very bottom Well in fact in some ways the government does far more for families around the poverty line just above the poverty line before then it's ever done before and I think we can be proud about that. Jackson thank you for your service and what would you hope we would do I would hope that Congress will put more resources into organizations like the one there Mr Perry point has gone to Utah. America Works organizations like that. So I started a nonprofit in 2005 A single parents and it didn't go anywhere because I didn't have the education or experience to actually get it going but what Mr Perry Pierpoint spoke about those were all of the things that I had outlined in his nonprofit to be able to assist. Families my biggest thing when I did my research was single parents the party it impacts everybody already does not just stay below the poverty line it impacts the entire country and if we do know I mean well we Congress has to do is understand that now I understand you cause I know you understand sometimes but it. Is just understand that the people that are in poverty. I lost my thought just a moment. The people I am Parvathy are. Some are generational and some are situation like. There has been say what assy is we do have a lot of programs that focus on the children however the single parents are the ones that really have to be re to be dealt with they the ones there have to be. Realize and of course you have to make sure their way you teach them or you train them or you redirect them that you look out the for away or fear of the children but I really believe that put more emphasis or the person as opposed to just shoving out money is more important if that makes any sense to. Talk to a person were down to maybe 20 seconds that's money for. This behavior and now I because I agree with every reference I think that the most important thing is to make work opportunity and to think that when you think about child poverty and we know the persistence of child poverty how devastating it is that helping those children's parents to be able to work and take care of the children is the number one way I think to help them out of poverty we need all of the other programs but helping them to be able to provide for their families and investing in that opportunity it's what's important thank you very much thank you Senator Casey stamina. Let's thank you very much Mr Ranking Member and into the chairman for having this hearing which is incredibly important and I want to thank all of our witnesses particularly Dr Shafer who are very proud to have as a professor at the Gerald Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and as has been said a lot by our colleagues your book is very important it's jaw dropping and eye popping and it examines what we're really confronting today in a very real way by talking to the people themselves and so thank you for that and thank you to all of you for your testimony. When we look at this in America right now we are facing a huge crisis in America a poverty crisis and we can't just say this is because people don't want to work I mean as as you've said Dr Shafer people view themselves as workers and in fact in many many many cases they're working 1234 part time jobs or trying to piece it together and in fact what I find it astounding statistic is that if we actually enforced equal pay for equal work for women half the women in poverty today would be left out of poverty so that their policy things that we can do it along with a livable wage and making sure that when folks are hit down hit because of the global economy or tax policies that are rewarding plants going overseas. Or the lack of investment and job training there are things that we can do to support what all of you are doing and that's why I think this hearing is very important I do want to just reiterate as we're going to be bringing this hearing to a close today what we are talking about in terms of the crisis in this country nearly 47000000 Americans are living in poverty about 20000000 in deep poverty. Nobody wants to be in that situation. And nearly 106000000 Americans are on the brink of falling into poverty so they're holding they were in the middle class they've fallen down they're trying to hold on so they don't find themselves losing every On the latter and what colleagues have said so importantly is that one out of 5 children in the future for us and what does that mean for them 10 or 15 percent are seniors and frankly if we didn't have Medicare and we didn't have Medicaid we didn't have social security which have been safety nets that have lifted the generation out of poverty there'd be a whole lot more senior citizens in poverty today so these things have actually worked and then I could go on and on but I would just say and one out of 7 are women and unique challenges for women with children and so. Our history in Hamburg this is very very important and we're talking about moms and dads and Grampa's and grandmothers and folks that just wanted a chance to make it in the greatest country in the world they're looking for opportunity and so my question really goes to what we're doing about this and we've talked a lot about Tan have and the reality is. I met New York Times article this week laid out a number of issues with the program and in you have spoken about some of those but flat funding for all talking about how I was certainly electricity costs have gone up food gas grant school clothes Everything's gone up but support for low income individuals to be able to move out of poverty has been flat for $20.00 yards 2 decades Secondly this is a block grant with minimal oversight and I am very concerned about that because I think when you put those 2 things together a block grant with very little accountability flat funding we've seen devastating realities as a result of that particularly for children and now only 9 in every 100 poor families 9 I 100 poor families actually benefits from this program those put into place and in the ninety's it was 55 percent So my question goes to a little bit more about what we can do from a block grant status because my concern is we have seen Republican budgets passed in the House and in the Senate that would block grant more things that's block grant Medicaid left block grant food programs without accountability a deep concern because I don't see where this approach has actually worked and so my question for each of you would be. You know what can we do to provide more oversight so in fact the block grant approach works or do it differently or do you think that it has worked I guess all the numbers that I see show that it's not working but if we're going to do more it particularly so that those who are eligible can receive cash income that they so desperately need. What can we do to change a program that clearly has not kept up with the times in terms of the challenges that families are experiencing Mr Pierpoint start with you just thank you. I believe that giving states the flexibility they need to innovate and to sort of their communities and their citizens is the right approach I'm not familiar with what other states may or may not be doing in regards to their block around I believe ours is successful I think that some opportunity is ally with aligning federal agencies to more accurately identify outcomes that are uncommon I mean I administer food stamp the step program the child care program 10 of program the Wagner Pizer funding with workforce programs in alignment of outcomes is an important piece for us it becomes difficult to provide a fact of service delivery mechanism when you're trying to meet the needs of all of the different programs so I believe trying to eliminate the silos as much as we can that's part of what we're doing with understanding our data that we've been working on over the last 4 years is how do you then once you understand the challenges of the families in regards to Tanna food stamps Medicaid the programs that are on how do you shape the programs to best address those needs and that's what we're trying to do now is to to look at our programs look at our policies and how do we align not only within Workforce Services But Department of Human Services and the other agencies that are part of our commission to then be more effective in the way you deliver the programs to the families and I think I would just ask one thing because clearly you are focused on that and very much appreciate all the work that you're doing but if the state isn't doing that. There's no accountability for that right now. Should there be some benchmark some some different accountability if if if every state is not doing the kind of thoughtful approach that you are I would encourage that they move in that direction how about her not so I do think it has a light on our programs in a way that we may have not understood it in the past and it takes a lot of effort and it takes leadership and it takes the will to really understand what works and what doesn't and then have the ability and desire to change to make it more effective for the family so I do think there should be accountability but I think you 1st have to understand the data in the situation that you're faced with in your state Thank you Dr Shafer. I I'm afraid I tend to agree with Peter German as in the way paper Dan if it's broken in his assessment that the Block Grant structure I don't see a conceivable way where the black and structure is a is a good way to do a social policy to do a social welfare policy in the case and if I think if we were going to start somewhere it would be trying to close some of these loopholes that allow states to simply fill their budget gaps while providing no actual increased support to poor families I don't think it was policy makers and tent for that to be a primary function of the Tanach program that only would go to basic assistance that only a very tiny amount would actually go to supporting work programs and I think if if we wanted to work more in the ways that it was intended we need to figure out ways to simplify so that there aren't numerous loopholes I'll give you just one more example that many states actually use 3rd party maintenance of effort funds rate so they count as part of their contribution to 10 F. what nonprofits are doing in their communities so they're not actually spending any money whatsoever on their own programs. Or not in fact it goes beyond that it's not just the expenditures of these programs in some cases they're actually counting the volunteer hours as meat and effort and I just don't think this was ever what was intended for the program so I'm not of a mindset that there is a good way to do this is a blocker and I think once you close one loophole that we know the great American spirit you know I think people will innovate and find other loopholes to work through in so in some ways simplicity is better right and I. I am not I want to be clear I'm not advocating for returned to if D.C. I don't think that was a successful program either. But I think we should have a cash assistance program that does at least what we think it should be did what it's supposed to do and right now we don't thank you Mr Jackson thank you again for your service you know the way that I can answer is I know in the military when things don't work the adze KOMO they inspect they tell us Ro you fix it you don't fix it you get in trouble so it's kind of like that's what you have to do. Very logical very I thank you very much Dr Love it so I agree with Dr Shafer that the Block Grant structure is difficult to. To make workable but I do think also that Congress has not abdicated all its ability to provide provide some incentives and encouragement and structures around what you can do with the block grant them we discussion is you know Congress has set the rules of what can be used so I do think even within the block structure you can to make changes that will encourage more spending on cash assistance encourage more spending on work and some of the performance indicators and making things more efficient as Mr pare point and said connecting to we not making states have to run around and spend a lot of administrative dollars wasted I think it's important to look through the center card and had no chance and no Senator Bennett wanted to ask an additional question Senator Cardin. Mr Chairman I've been enjoying this discussion obviously had to yield 1st to Senator Bennett and then I'll take my great I know he has a 2nd round and I haven't had my 1st but I'm more than happy and that is enormously kind and hard on usually kind gesture around this place I deeply appreciate it I wanted to come Mr Pierpoint to the point you were making a minute ago when I was superintend the demo public schools. I felt like. So much of what we did was comply with what the federal government told us was important to county and that by the time these siloed programs got to our kids. They were sewed separated from each other and so distinct from each other that you couldn't actually serve the whole kid if it were up to me it's not unfortunately up to me. We'd have a standing committee of the Senate that was focused on our kids and on their future and the question the 1st question would be asking ourselves is how do we align all the well intentioned programs that we have so that when they actually get to the local level. But you've got the ability to be able to serve kids and serve families so I wonder if you would 2 points here $11.00 Dr Shafer also. We need a feedback loop coming from the field to the Congress it's not just these hearings but that's informing us how you're actually using the money well the local level and where it's being wasted we don't have that so many issues but certainly on these issues. And and 2nd if you could talk a little bit about your working around schools and early childhood and after school which you mentioned earlier I'd be interested to hear that and I only have a maximum of 3 minutes in 1900 slept because Senator Cardin needs to get squashed. I'll be brief and thank you breaking down the silos has been something that's taken a bit of time certainly have been the state school superintendent sit on the commission is an important aspect of the discussion of how to best serve the children as well as the entire family and for him to understand the data that's coming out as we continue to research will compel him and superintendents across the state to understand the data understand what the challenges are with the family they're working with the kids anyways what are the kids or do you know that's where the kids are and so making sure that the programs that are maybe outside of the schools are effective in the way that they're trying to serve them within the schools that's why we. Very thoughtfully went into the schools to be a part of the project in generation kids so really to start understanding the dynamics between principals and our services and so that we can continue to to learn how to best serve the families the 2nd part of the question remind me again. And there's a bit feedback to this put the feedback. Whatever mechanism you believe would be most beneficial we reproduce our report annually it comes out every October 1st we've got a 5 and 10 year plan that's outlined what we need to think we need to do to address the findings in the data it's folks that focuses on kids we have policy recommendations that go to our legislature they're very familiar with the work they're the ones that will consider legislative changes that may help support the understanding of the data that we've been able to produce so we're happy to come and testify we're happy to provide the port reports annually but continue the dialogue on what I believe is an important transformation that could occur at least with the inner generational poverty families and thank you Mr Chairman I will forbear. Thank you to the panel by the way you very very interesting test and I think Senator Bennett who has been for this kind of advocacy for a long long time makes the point also that Congress has got a big oversight responsibility and we have to more frequently hear from people in the field and I'm going to talk to Chairman Hatch about that Sarah card with Senator Wyden and the point I was going to make about Senator Bennett also you know you and I were in the House of Representatives when we changed from the F.T.C. to town of and one of the areas that we really try to harp on is how we deal with the basic structures of people being able not only get a job not only be able to keep a job but the move up the economic ladder and Senator Bennett it's been a real champion recognizing that we have to have the educational component in that make it sensitive understand that work experience is important but you also have the skills in order to be able to keep a job and to be able to advance that's how you get out of poverty and I think Senator Bennett for his leadership that's why I wanted to listen to your question the present where it is to my questions what. There is no question that we needed to reform the D.C. There's no question about that we needed to be able to put an emphasis on work and to give the flexibilities to the states to innovate that was the whole reason for what I've seen though is that there's been more micromanaging at the national level more so than accountability at the national level I was listening to my colleagues Senator Wyden asked these questions of which are very valid questions how do we achieve our objectives by the major test of poverty 10 of has not succeeded I mean look at the numbers on the poverty rates and you see that the one of the major tools Tenet has not been successful in that regard therefore I think it is important for us to look at accountability but don't confuse that with taking away flexibility. The problem is that many states have diverted funds for reasons other than dealing with getting people jobs that they can grow and get out of poverty so it is this hearing is very important and I think it's interesting to see the people who were here at the end and their commitment to saying look we've got to do this better and of course the truth of matter is Congress has and as really reduced this as affective tool in real dollars We have not kept up on the amount of dollars that are that are necessary so Mr Pierpoint I appreciate very much the innovation that you've brought today Dr Shafer I want you noticed Senator Brown is not only distributed your book he's given us a test to make sure we actually read it and that and we have but we appreciate the commitment you made and Dr Lopresti I very much appreciate the work that you have done in this area but I'm going to ask this Jackson a question for 2 reasons 1st and foremost she hails from Prince George's County Maryland which has my attention Secondly she has experienced firsthand the challenges of the system and. I know that you are a strong proponent of America works and you benefited from the program in America works but I would just like to get your firsthand experiences as to the. The challenges that are in the system that we should be able to try to do something about of where we're doesn't make it difficult for you to take care of your needs with temporary assistance so that you can in fact be productive where can you see people who have been inhibited where we think we can make some commonsense changes. To the system so that more people can benefit and get the type of employment that they need for their families. I think. I think the program will benefit from. Animation understand your cost if you're. From my priest or my perspective in going through the program. I was very young started. Well before I started work in livin in the community it everything has changed so much over the years that that's that's like OK where do I start kind of quest in the weird America Works help you why was that such a valuable program to you that was very valuable mainly because like I probably said I 3 times already but because it focused on me as a person yes it was about getting the job but it made me focused on making sure that when I I mean I was able to call a Jennifer tiller when I didn't feel like coming in. I may get my benefits and use it 30 hours OK I may get my 30 hours and I'm not going to I don't feel like it but I want it to work but I was going through a depression and gone through P.T.S.D. and all these other things but the P.T.S.D. came later after the war I was still going through all of those depressions and knows. Anxieties way before I went to war. From the stressors of everyday life of just trying to have a place to live of just trying to keep a place to live. In a decent area safe so it's this is. America works ended up helping me by bit of that help me to pretty much focus on. My strengths sense and that's what I take away from that is the flexibility is important allowing the states to come up with innovative ways to deal with the individual because everybody's different right advice to vary by one by the way people want to work. I don't know if you want to wear one for the have a job than than than than than the alternatives served by wants to work people develop at different stages and have different challenges and have different needs. They need help in reaching that ladder that allows them to grow and be able to take care of their family so giving flexibility I thought was always a good idea and I don't challenge that but I thought Senator Stabenow has pointed out accountability is right there's got to be some accountability in the system that if you don't take on the challenges we give you the flexibility to give you the tools which by the way I don't think we are today but if we gave you the necessary flexibility in the tools then we should hold you accountable so that you can't you know dodge the issues of poverty in your state you can't dodge the issues of people have multiple issues. Having. Challenges and everybody has challenges you've got to be able to figure out how to deal with those challenges and people who are vulnerable those challenges can be disability and you need to figure out how you deal with that to get people in a productive work environment so anyway Mr Chairman I thought this hearing was extremely helpful and I think Senator Wyden for your patients in giving us the opportunity to they answer QUESTION Thank you Senator Senator Cardin and Senator Cardin has extensive experience on this not just here but in the other body as well as on the committee of of jurisdiction there. Just because I didn't give an opening statement 2 hours ago is no reason to torture you now and I will not give one and here's here's my thought about this one of the great chairs of this committee was Daniel Patrick Moynihan Senator Schumer enormous fan of Senator Moynihan and the center Moynihan chaired the committee talked about the complexification of government and frequently said that in connection with a whole host of government you know programs and that certainly seems to embody much of what we have heard you know today and I believe encouraged on a number of fronts the bouquet tossing that has taken place between Mr Shafer and Mr Pierpont for example just one example are very fine witnesses who come from the field who tells what it's really like enormously helpful and I'm struck by the notion that well there was a F.T.C. in yesteryear and now there's you know Hannah and sort of people will kind of chew on which program did what and usually what the limitations of both programs were and it seems to me where you all were taking asked was sort of towards a 3rd path not A.F.D.C. not an F. as it stands today but this 3rd path and what I got out of it. And you know again we're not going to keep you here to breakfast time with the notion that you all were interested in more understandable standards I think Mr Schafer and several of you mentioned that and some flexibility and when you were talking about flexibility I got the sense that flexibility meant the capacity to respond to economic changes sort of big picture economic changes that take place in our country and to individual needs and because of the lateness of the hour I'm not gone get you know make this a star chamber hearing and put you through you know lots more but. Ponder that if you will as chairman have and I'm both of noted this is a very hectic day and I'm going to have to go to back to the floor as well I want to thank all of our witnesses in their outstanding presentation and thanks to all the senators as well we got a lot out of this hearing also note that any questions for the record particularly for staff need to be submitted by no later than Thursday November 5th but thank thank you all thank you all for your service and with that the Finance Committee is adjourned.