Yes or no come to order I want to welcome
everyone to this morning's hearing on

welfare and poverty in America
the great American poet Walt Whitman

wrote quote what a devil our
poverty how many desires

how many aspirations after goodness and
true I'm many noble thoughts loving

wishes to words our fellas beautiful and
mentioning Snodgrass crust and

under that heel crushed under
the heel without remorse or applause.

I think everyone here shares Mr Whitman's
sentiments about the questions and

remorseless nature of poverty and

what may have we may have some of the
great disagreements on how best to address

this issue all of us have an interest in
trying to find more ways to flexibly and

efficiently alleviate poverty in
America today's hearing what attempt

to provide some clarity around issues of
poverty the effect it has on children and

families in the United States and the role
that the federal programs particularly

the Temporary Assistance for
Needy Families program currently play in

mitigating fatherly poverty is a critical
challenge for our nation and far too often

children end up being the primary victims
recent official poverty statistics

reveal that one out of every 5 children
in the end 9 states lives in poverty

that's pathetic and some argue that
the problem is even more ride spread but

regardless of the frequency of we know
that poverty greatly increases the risk

for a number of negative
outcomes among our children in

some communities a cycle of deep poverty
persists generation after generation

often often these families live
below the radar unseen by many.

Day to day life for families in deep
poverty is front of difficulty and

constant stress to make
a bad situation worse and

worse this unending toxic stress often
leads to a number of then well and

physical health issues unfortunately
there is no easy solution to

addressing issues associated with poverty
policymakers have been arguing for

years about the best way to address
poverty for a long time programs which

provided cash assistance to women and
children did little to encourage work and

in many cases perpetuated the cycle of
poverty history showed us that the best

remedy to poverty and especially the cycle
of poverty is a well paying job and

I believe that most people in poverty
do want to be gainfully employed.

They also record recognize have been that
in many cases individuals face significant

barriers to successful employment
that can be difficult to surmount

the welfare reforms in the $1990.00 S.

which transitioned welfare from
an individual entitlement into a capped

funding stream that produced mixed results
the number of families on welfare has

declined dramatically going from
the peak of 5100000 in 1904 to 1600000

in 2015 However the poverty rate in 2014
was nearly the same as the ones prior

to welfare reform many families who
are eligible for assistance for 10 of.

Do not receive.

Oftentimes states do not engage hand
of recipients in robust activities

designed to help them obtain and keep the
job the town of benefits up is very small

ranging from only 170 dollars
to 923 dollars a month for

a family of 3 however while that may
seem like a relatively small amount for

a family the federal government still
spends billions of dollars in a tent

to address poverty each year in 10 of
them the federal government and the state

spent nearly $30000000000.00 in fiscal
year 2014 Unfortunately the smallest

expenditure was directed toward the work
program activities while the largest

expenditure was spent on what states
report as quote other expenditures and.

There is no definitive definition of
what these other expenditures are that

we do know that nearly $11000000000.00
are spent on them each year and

despite these clear issues with the
program prior efforts to reform plan to

have not been successful I think it's fair
to say that many in both the left and

the right would agree although for
different reasons that 10 of

the federal government's welfare flagship
is in need of reform from 2001 to

to reauthorize and reform to have

center John Breaux from Louisiana and
I spearheaded the so-called tri partisan.

Unquote proposal to reform to

they became the basis of then
Chairman Grassley is pride bill which

in a disappointing display of
partisanship was ultimately filibustered

by the Democratic minority several years
ago I wrote a letter to President Obama

indicating my willingness and
desire to work with him on welfare reform

that letter has never been answered but
the president.

What is more of the above and
ministrations never put forward a proposal

to reauthorize Tanna Instead this
administration has attempted to bypass

the Congress and create regulatory schemes
not authorized under the statute in order

to undermine keep teachers of welfare
reform including the work requirement and

child support enforcement.

In other words welfare programs and into
villages they are designed to help and

become just another fun in the endless
partisan conflict between the abundant

ministration and Republicans in
Congress I think this is unfortunate and

that is precisely the reason why so

many people are skeptical about any
progress being made on poverty and

welfare in the near future unfortunately
until the administration adopts

a different posture with regard to these
programs I'm afraid to discuss this is and

will continue to be well founded
However we do things differently here

in the Senate Finance Committee even if
the administration continues to double

down on an unproductive position I
believe we need to continue to explore

issues associated with probably keep
searching for ways to improve welfare in

this country that in my view is the best
way to keep moving forward the reforms

to 10 if need so badly that is why we're
here today I look forward to a red bus

discussion of these important issues and
Senate Senator Wyden comes I

will interrupt whatever we're
doing to have his opening remarks.

Now let me take a few minutes just to
introduce our distinguished panel of

witnesses 1st we will hear from
Dr Pamela the press to my saying that.

Thoughts are labor economists and
senior fellow for the income and

Benefits Policy Center at
the Urban Institute she has worked for

the past 2 decades on research regarding
low wage labor markets and barriers to

work among disadvantaged populations
Dr low priced as a nationally known.

Expert on and welfare and
Policy Research as well

as coauthor author of the book
Leaving welfare employment and

wellbeing of families that left
welfare in the post entitled An era.

Aretha Jackson a veteran and

Tanner percipient Mr Jackson was
born in Prince George's County.

Maryland and grew up in the West Indies
team she joined the US regular

Army Reserves immediately after graduating
from high school and 2 years later was

released from active duty on a pregnancy
discharge she later joined the D.C.

Army National Guard where she served for

Ms Jackson rejoined the U.S.
Army and served in Iraq she suffers and

important she offers an important
perspective to this panel as

a single mother of 2 a prior 10
a percipient in Maryland D.C.

and I don't know why as well as having
experienced some listeners twice

before in her life she is
a disabled veteran and

currently in her 2nd year of training
as a veteran service representative for

the V.A. in Philadelphia she is a graduate
of Charmin University of Honolulu.

associate professor at the University of

Michigan School of Law Sidney School
of Social Work and the Gerald R.

Ford School of Public Policy Dr Shafer's
recent work explores rising levels

of extreme poverty in the U.S. the impact
of snap on material hardships and

barriers to to unemployment insurance
faced by low and earning workers

Dr safer is also cough 3rd $2.00
a day living on almost nothing

in America finally we will hear
from John Pierpoint Pierpont

executive director at Utah's Department
of Workforce Services since December 2012

Mr Pierpont oversees
a 1500000000 dollar budget and

a department tasked with administrative
federal and state programs including

workforce development eligibility
services public assistance programs and

unemployment insurance Mr Potter's
over 20 years of experience with

Workforce Services serving previously as
the deputy director eligibility services

division director and leading the
department's largest service area under

Mr Mr Pierpont direction the department
of saved over $33000000.00

He is a graduate of the University of
Utah and a dedicated public servant so

I want to thank each of you for
being willing to appear here today for

your diligent work in the service of
you've rendered as well as and with what

is your willingness to testify and answer
questions today each of you will give your

testimony in the order in which you were
introduced and I'd like to remind you to

please limit your initial remarks to 5
minutes that will have some time for

questions Dr the press Please
proceed with your opening statement.

Thank you my name is
Pamela Prasad I'm a senior fellow and

labor economist there of an institute and
economic and

social policy research organization
the views I present today here are my own.

I'd like to make the following points
today 1st the type of program is

increasingly playing a smaller role
in addressing poverty even for

the most needy the 2nd many poor mothers
who are not receiving town of are also

not working 3rd there are solutions to
bring these families out of poverty

I discussed 2 1st improving access to town
of and 2nd investing in these mothers

skills to improve their opportunity to
work talent caseload have declined and

remain low as the chairman said in the
last 15 years 10 of case loads of fallen

families today over the same time

period the percent of families in poverty
that has grown only about one quarter

of families in poverty received tons
of benefits in 10 states fewer than 10

percent of families in poverty receive 10
of benefits many families eligible for

these benefits don't receive them the town
of participation rate the number of

families receiving kind of assistance
relative to the number eligible for

benefits has declined from

one 3rd of all families eligible for

time to receive these benefits by
comparison the participation rate for

SNAP was 83 percent in 2012
the low participation rate in

town it should be cause for concern 10 of
eligibility rules are such that only very

poor families in most states well below
the poverty line are eligible for

these benefits even as town of 6 to
move families from benefits receipt

to self-sufficiency families in need
should be able to access this assistance.

In addition the share of single
mothers who are not working and

not receiving tan it has increased over
time this increase shows not only that

kind of is failing to reach
many eligible families but

those families are not working
the aim of the kind of program and

the main avenue out of poverty while some
of these mothers have exhausted kind of

benefits many have never
received have why are so

many many poor families not receiving
time of benefits well families with

accurate information about the program
have difficulty accessing the benefits

some others don't know that they might be
eligible or have misinformation about what

is required many of you have tried to
get kind of found the process difficult

programs had long wait times required
multiple visits last paperwork and

intrusive questions finally some mothers
lost benefits after hitting time limits

but they were still unable
to find work why are so

many poor single mothers without work
if these mothers could find jobs and

overcome challenges to keeping those
jobs their circumstances would no

doubt be improved they have difficulty
finding and sustaining work for

many reasons including lack
of access to child care and

reliable transportation physical and
mental illness and low skill levels

roughly a 3rd have less than a high school
education further there are few jobs

available in many of the communities in
which these poor mothers and children live

what can we do to help families in poverty
who do not have cash assistance or

earnings 1st we can help families access
to the town of program should work

to correct misinformation misunderstanding
and increase incentive for

states to improve access at the federal
and state level there are examples from

other programs of ways to streamline
access that provide lessons for

improvements to time however as
the chairman noted Tanis benefits

are low in many states and
are temporary So while important

time if we see alone is not the answer
to helping families move out of poverty.

work work is the path to a better life for

the majority of parents and their children
and poor single mothers are no exception

rigorous evidence from studies of
a number of different employ in

play men in training programs shows
significant improvements in employment and

earnings are possible even for

families with significant work challenges
we need to make changes to town policies

that encourage greater spending by town
of programs on work related activities

the amount of funds spent per case is far
below the cost approach of programs that

have been demonstrated to improve work in
earnings for poor low skill families in

addition we should better integrate kind
of work programs with the broader publicly

funded workforce system in practice in
many states that's not been the case

the workforce investment opportunity
act includes movement in this direction

federal policymakers need to reduce
obstacles in town of policy to aid this

integration in conclusion one of
the importance excesses of U.S.

policy in fighting poverty is the movement
to make work pay for low wage workers

there into income tax credit snap and
other programs with millions of

people out of poverty however for
poor women without work or

work based safety net is of limited
assistance investing in ways to improve

the work prospects of poor single
mothers through the town of program and

other publicly funded workforce programs
is an important goal improving access to

tonic for these poor mothers is
another important goal Thank you

Miss Jackson were to your post movie no.

I'll share my hat ranking member white in

other distinguished members of the
committee My name is Aretha Jackson I was

one of Prince George's County Maryland I
grew up in the projects of Washington D.C.

I am a graduate of difficult be
a public schools I served in

the United States Army Army Reserves the
District of Columbia Army National Guard

and I have an associates of Arts
degree in the broads I graduated.

With my bachelor's in
of Arts in psychology

I have struggled with poverty my entire
life I have been homeless twice in my

life a single parent of 2 I have
received 10 of assistance for

needy families a number of times in
Mosul states including Hawaii and

the District of Columbia I am
a disabled veteran Karalee in my

representative in the pinch him and

him is management center at
the Department of Veterans Affairs

in Philadelphia Pennsylvania my
personal experiences with Turner

with the turn of program varies based on
the time the place in the regulations

the one thing that remained consistent
was the negative added to a most of

the individuals there worked as examiners
the attitude was one of Syr Sapir your T..

As you know the program has evolved
over the years I 1st started receiving

the receiving welfare in 1991 it was
not difficult to get food stamps and

has assistance the housing
assistance program in D.C.

help me with my security deposit and
furniture for

my 1st apartment the program focused
on getting my basic needs met

which allow me to focus on my check out
and getting back into the workforce

in 2001 after getting pregnant
with my son I quit my job and

reapply for public assistance
this time in Maryland the program

in Maryland told me of all the regulations
and requirements I was to meet but

did not offer a plane or Paxson to
accomplish these unrealistic goals

because my house foreclosed I had to move
back in with my mother in Washington D.C.

thus my case in Maryland was close at
opening a 10 of case with the district

I was in rolled in a resume writing class
in the programs back then in 2001 were

OK I returned to work after 2008 and
after September the 11th.

In 2003 my mom put my children and
me out and

we lived in Tipperary housing
Bolling Air Force Base and

then moved to housing in Fort Myers
a few months later I was

homeless again I was not equipped to
help myself or anyone else at that time.

In 2006 Mary in realistic in
the United States Army but


duty because my family care

plan failed once again I
found myself unemployed and

simpering in need of
Temporary Assistance for

Needy Families this time
I was a whole why and

the program was totally different I was
required to balance here 30 hour was

per week after completing workshops
to help me build a resume improve

interviewing techniques conduct job
search and the GO sheet salaries

I wrote in college and was allowed to
attend class in lieu of volunteer work

after graduating college I moved
back to D.C. and applied for

the clinical psychology program in Argosy
University in Roslyn the genius this

is where I learned that I was experiencing
P.T.S.D. anxiety and depression.

I filled a very important players and
was removed from the program once again I

needed help this time the 10 of program
was different from every other time

I was required to attend
America works a Washington D.C.

Now order to keep receiving my assistance
Americal works is an organization

that assists individuals in find the
employment but this program also helps in

a way no other program hands the employees
at America Works help they help me

to see myself as a productive person
again I was able to share personal

information with Jennifer to other that
kept me from committing suicide and

together we were able to get me the
services I needed from the V.A. employers

employers visit America work sweetly
weekly they interview candidates and

hire people all of the time there's
a glory bill in the lobby for

individuals they get a job to ream
every time the bill went all of

you could feel the joy in the air
Jennifer was tough on all of us

at the same time she showed that she
cared the information and partnership

America works provide it help me to obtain
full time employment with the Department

of Veterans Affairs 10 of
programs across the nation need

assistance if we have more organizations
like America works a Washington D.C.

People will be more willing to return
to work thank you for your time and

I look forward to your questions
with a humorous works and.

Turn to you.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak
with you today in 2010 my colleague

Catherine Eden a qualitative researcher of
American poverty for over 2 decades begin

to encounter more and more families in
conditions that were strikingly different

from what she had seen a decade and a half
earlier these families didn't just have

too little cash to live on they often
had no cash at all and while some claim

benefits like snap to Eden it seemed the
absence of cash permeated every aspect of

their lives have the number of American
households with children surviving on

virtually no cash increase even I look

participation which yields the largest
estimate of income among poor families and

as of 2011 we found that in
any given month there were

$1500000.00 households with $3000000.00
children reporting cash incomes of no more

than $2.00 per person per day up

we examine numerous other data sources
too in all painted a consistent story of

worsening conditions faced by our
nation's poorest families how do families

end up in such extreme circumstances and
what are the consequences in search

of answers we sought out families who are
experiencing extreme poverty in different

parts of the country and we've published
our results in a book 2 dollars a day

a clear theme emerge from our research
families we met in vision them's

the insults 1st and foremost as workers
Ray McCormick of Cleveland says my dad

raised me that you work for everything you
have and then we asked families to imagine

a better life the near universal response
was that they would be working in a job

with stable full time hours paying
$10.00 to $12.00 an hour yet

devotion to work is not enough to shield
these families from spells living on

virtually nothing the labor market they
compete in is unforgiving parents can

apply for dozens upon dozens of jobs to
no avail and when they do find work it is

often in the service sector where they
must manage considerable instability.

Jennifer Hernandez in
Chicago had been hunting for

work for 10 months while living in
homeless shelters with her 2 children and

when she finally landed a position at a
small family cleaning business at 1st she

liked the work it included cleaning
vacant apartments and often buildings but

as the Chicago winters said in the work
load shifted mainly to foreclosed homes

general Jennifer reports at these homes
had no power no working lights no heat

the cleaning crew never knew what to
expect a crack house lack of running

water meant that Jennifer's team
would bring their own in buckets but

it would quickly turn pitch black and
off they would go to a neighbor's home or

the nearest gas station to refill and
carry the heavy buckets back to the job

breathing in cold air Jennifer's immune
system weekend she caught viruses and

passed them on to her kids as she
called in sick more frequently her boss

Mark her is unreliable and
her hours and paycheck plummeted

she had a few months left of guaranteed
housing a benefit she received from

the shelter when she got work she decided
to quit her job so she could get well and

look for the next one it took

how long would it take to find the next
sometimes unstable relationships lead to

job loss Rima Cormack insists that this
shift at a local Wal-Mart were the best

part of her week outside of the time she
got with her 2 year old to Zahra when her

uncle George and Aunt Camilla were out
of the Cleveland home they'd shared

in just 6 months she had been
named cashier of the month twice

because she had this ability to
memorize the 4 digit bar codes of

popular produce items she would read
the bar codes into a recording device and

set it to play on repeat as she slept my
subconscious did the job she says but

one day she climbed into George's pickup
and the gas life flashed on she had spent

her entire paycheck on rent groceries and
diapers and given George 50 dollars for

gas to take the truck to work yet
he had emptied the tank

over the weekend recalled her manager in
a panic could anyone help her out and

her manager replied that if
she couldn't get to work she

shouldn't bother coming on.

None of the families in our study thought
of Canada is a viable lifeline when we

asked Madonna Harris a mother of one
living in Chicago family homeless shelters

in Chicago if she consider applying she
told us they just aren't giving that out

anymore after a month without a job or a
McCormick finally went down to the welfare

office she reports that a caseworker told
her Honey I'm sorry there are just so

many needy people we don't have enough
to go around if a family access those

programs like snap Do they really need
cash beyond the high rates of material

hardships we saw the best evidence that
cash matters is the links to which

families will go to generate just enough
to buy decent clothes at a thrift store or

stay in their home for one more night just
look at Compton and Tennessee donate their

blood plasma for $30.00 up to twice
this week as often as the law will allow

when we match her plasma cells or her
family's only source of cash income after

the procedure is over just because I get
tired especially if my iron is down and

I get like really tired she has
an obvious indentation in the crease of

her elbow a small scar from giving
plasma so much which we saw over and

over again across the country the families
we met very much subscribe to

the American ideals although sometimes
they didn't have the resources to reach it

they want to work in a decent job
they want to safe place to live and

they want to do right by their children
the more we can align policy in

programs to help them meet these
goals the more we as a country will

have done right by Jessica entrap
us Jennifer and Madonna and Ray

whatever assistance I can provide to you
with this goal in mind I met your service

thank you so
much Mr Purple from you know here.

Chairman Hatch Senator Wyden and
members of the Senate Committee on Finance

thank you for the opportunity to address
you I want to start with a brief story

if you months ago I had the opportunity
to visit with a mother named Melody

melody grew up in poverty and remains
there today along with her 2 children.

I was moved by Melody is strong desire and
motivation for

finding a path out of poverty and
providing increased stability and

opportunity for her sons but it was
something that she said later that reveals

the importance of Utah's efforts to do
crease the number of children caught in

the cycle of poverty she said there are
a lot of brilliant minds lost in poverty.

We have come to learn that even in Utah
where our economy is incredibly strong

there are thousands of families still
facing barriers to self-reliance and

lost in poverty Utah's economic
success is allowing us to focus on

families struggling to break free from
the cycle of poverty passed from one

generation to the next we refer to this
cycle as intergenerational poverty.

In 2012 the intergenerational poverty
Mitigation Act was adopted to address

the needs of struggling families the act
the sting which is between 2 types of

poverty situational poverty and
intergenerational poverty recognizing that

for the majority of people utilization
of public assistance is a brief and

temporary but for others no amount
of support leads to self-reliance.

The Act also requires the Department of
Workforce Services to release an annual

report analyzing data regarding families
experiencing intergenerational poverty.

The report focuses on 4 areas of
Child Wellbeing family economic

stability early childhood
development education and

health the level of research and
analysis contained in the end report is

unprecedented we have gathered data
across multiple state agencies revealing

correlations between intergenerational
poverty and childhood risk factors.

In each area of childhood wellbeing
children experiencing intergenerational

poverty are struggling they have
limited access to high quality early

childhood programs experience
poor academic outcomes their

parents are only sporadically attached to
the labor force and they are experiencing

much higher rates of abuse and
neglect relative to other children.

The data contained in the report is
utilized by the state's intergenerational

Welfare Reform Commission to
develop evidence based solutions

to reduce the number of children
living in intergenerational poverty.

The commission includes the 5 executive
directors from the state agencies serving

to serving the needs of Utah is vulnerable
families the agencies work to improve

coordination of services and
programs share data and

evaluate internal policies through
the members serve in the governor's

cabinet including myself
by aligning programs

sharing data our agencies are breaking
down the silos that often arise and

government by focusing on families we
are supporting their efforts to build

a brighter future for their children these
efforts are not leading to new services or

massive additional programs that encourage
more government spending rather we

are more effectively leveraging resources
already in place in our communities and

across both the public and private sectors
this alignment removes barriers for

families working toward economic
independence without burdening taxpayers

with additional costs.

I would like to briefly provide one
example of program alignment that is our 2

generation test program called
next generation kids as a part

of our research we have valuated our Tanev
cash assistance program which focuses

exclusively on employment of the parent
however we have found that adults often

cannot truly be successful when the needs
of their children are not being met as

a result we modified our program so that
while we are engaging the parents to get

them employed we are also ensuring that
those parents are meeting the basic needs

of their children all the next generation
kids has only been in existence for

one year it is improving the lives of
families like mellow days who is also

a program participant Utah
is committed to this effort

we are taking the research into local
communities across our state and

empowering local leaders
to take the 1st steps.

The research clearly shows the impact
of this unique form of poverty

which is why we need a unique
approach to understand it and

address it Utah believes strongly in the
potential of individuals like mellow day

she is one of those brilliant minds
lost in poverty we cannot afford

to ignore those brilliant minds we must
empower these families to succeed and

equip their children to Xscape poverty
which in turn will allow our economy to

flourish we will continue to learn and
apply new information to our methods and

we will hope to share our successes and
failures with other states working

to empower families to achieve
their greatest potential Thank you.

Well thank you we appreciate.

Your testimony here today
it's very helpful to us and

let me start with you Director.

And thank you for being here today and all
of you and for all the good work you're

doing here in Utah and I listen with great
interest to your description of what it

took to get this intergenerational poverty
initiative underway and I would note

that this effort began as a partnership
between a liberal have a good care and

crime Crompton and
a conservative state senator Stuart Reed I

think we can all take lesson from this but
partisan alliance I was particularly

interested in the next generation kids
program what are your plans with.

With the next generation kids program
moving forward and what are you

learning from this test program and
are you planning on expanding it.

Thank you Senator Hatch we
started our next generation kids

project in an area of our state called
Ogden Utah we targeted augur and

because they had a higher concentration
of intergenerational poverty

families in that area we
started with 32 families.

Tried to design the program to mirror what
we've learned with the data research and

we've been working in this particular area
for almost a year now so we're summarizing

what has been working and not working
in regards to the initial years period

our plan is to continue to learn from the
data learn from the strategies that are in

place with those families we've expanded
we actually it's a unique approach

because where we have our staff actually
in James Madison Elementary in Ogden and

it gives us an opportunity to interact
with the parents more frequently and

the kids to ensure that the kids are doing
well in school that the basic needs

are being met and so we're right there
in the school which I think we've

learned a lot just by being
amongst the kids there were about.

To expand to an area in
Salt Lake City called curtains and

this particular extension of the next
generation kids will focus on middle

school kids so we're trying to learn
from the elementary school kids and

now the middle school age kids
as we continue to work towards

affective ways of serving the families one
more area that we're about to move to in

January is an area called Glendale and
Utah and will be actually in a head start

facility there to engage that program and
how best to serve those families

in that setting so we're learning
a lot we've seen some successes and

we've seen some failures we've seen some
people drop out of the program some others

we've seen many get employed we're seeing
some stability with the children so

we'll continue to learn and that's
the idea is using the data learn from

the experiences of our interaction
with really multiple partners

this is not a government thing only it
includes the schools it includes community

partners there's a real collaboration
going on in Ogden in those other 2

schools that I think will help us
determine what are the best approach is so

that we can succeed for the children and
help support the adults thank you

Jackson and let me ask you a question I
want to thank you for your service to our

country and for your courage in coming
here and telling your story to the.

Basement Testament you've had
experiences with well 1st of them and

that it wasn't until you were
referred to America works

that you were new to around
if you'd met these vets but

I've interviewed Can you elaborate on
what was so different about America works

particularly Can you describe what made
this tumor so helpful and effective.

Well.

With America works they were.

Organization when you when they
addressed you as an individual

everything they didn't they
didn't they didn't treat you as

though you were just somebody on
welfare or somebody looking for

a handout they didn't treat you like
it was their resources that they were

given to you what happened was
they call they show interest in me

at that time when when I was required
to go to America works I was I wasn't

interested in going I had just flocked out
of graduate school I was depressed and

I didn't want to I didn't want to live
anymore but because of my children and

I when as a matter of fact one of my
children told me mine you should just go

just go and then when I did go
I was able to come back and

tell them you know I met this lady
name is Miss Jin Jennifer tiller and

she helped me to get the services
that I need in D.C. from the V.A.

because I had moved from Hawaii back
to D.C. and America Works is now

I joined the military straight out of high
school so I never knew how to apply for

a job outside the military everything
that I've done has been military back and

forth active duty of active duty so
we're fair but

when I went to America works they
looked at my Jennifer had a teen and

the team looked at my resume looked at
my experiences over the years in they

highlighted it and
told me what they seen based upon

what I had accomplished but
I would see to it myself so

that they know may America works different
from everywhere else that I have gone

is they help me to see me as
a productive individual and

they help me to implement that
to the point where I was able

to actually obtain employment or
thank you for my time.

Senator Coons are next on THE LIST Thank
you Mr Chairman thank you for having this

very important hearing this is a subject
that's long overdue for reconsideration.

I think one of the goals of for
welfare system ought to be to.

Equip people to become self-sufficient and
that anything that

detracts from that I think ought to be
discouraged I also think that in addition

the we ought to make sure that people
who have a responsibility to support

their own families are doing that as well
and I know that for Canada for example.

The Child Support Enforcement is
an important part of what that program.

Requires and I happen to have had some
experience as attorney general collecting

child support for

more than a 1000000 children who are not
being provided the financial support from

their own parents that they legally
are entitled to and they need in order to.

Hopefully not live in poverty.

I also think we need to look at.

Further encouraging work requirements and
I would guess that

even on a volunteer basis Miss Jackson
you're working on a volunteer basis helped

equip you with skills that made you more
employable or made you more attractive

to prospective employees employers
is that correct that's correct yes.

And I'm just curious you said how
long would you serve in the military

I did a total of 80 years OK And
did you a did you

experience the problems you testified
to while you were in the military or

only once you separated from the military
while I was in the military so

you were you were qualifying for
welfare benefits even though you were

receiving pay as an active
duty military no.

I was active duty and that I wanted a D.C.
National Guard in the reserves so I was a.

Week in a war in OK well we all know that
those weekend warriors are much more than

weekend warriors now that.

So I would.

I just have a question for some of the.

For the other 3 witnesses if you care
to comment on it Tina Fey has as I said

the Child Support Enforcement or
financial responsibility for the parents.

But that is on doesn't apply to any
other welfare benefit to my knowledge

you see any.

Problems or difficulties in the extending
that responsibility to parents to

help provide for their own families by
making that one of the requirements of.

Welfare benefits maybe
Mr Pierpont you can start.

Certainly I think that Child Support
Enforcement is an important aspect of.

Individuals becoming self-reliant so
yes it's specific to 10 if in

many cases if there is an opportunity
to expand that to other entitlement

public assistance type programs I
think that would be beneficial to that

individual that's trying to balance work
as well as supporting their families so

I would be in support of moving
in that direction Dr Shafer.

I think in my opinion I
would start where you

senator started with your
comments was that with the jobs.

Coming out of our research into dollars
a day expanding economic opportunity and

expanding the number of jobs through
subsidized jobs creation I think would

actually go a long way to improving
the ability of families to care for

their own children my coauthor knows
more about child support I know that.

You know I would be happy to connect with
her on that but I think the best thing we

could do to make sure especially fathers
and resident fathers pay child support

is to improve their access to
jobs which they in particular at

trouble accessing Dr impress
you know I would just add that.

As you may know many of the fathers of
the children also are very poor and

have limited you know funds to pay so
child and sportsman and child support

enforcement is uncreate incredibly
important and fathers should be helping to

support their families but there is this
conundrum of you can't you know get but

you get money where there isn't money and
so I mainly would like to make sure that

it doesn't adding something like that
doesn't make people in aus able or

unable to get something like snap because
it is so important for their family but

I want to add roadblocks While I
understand the importance of transporting

Forsman is German I have to I'll just
close on this I had the experience of

getting out of an airplane in El Paso
Texas and a gentleman came up to me and

said You put me in jail.

And I didn't know what to
expect after that statement.

But what he told me is that his wife did
not his former wife denied him visitation

with his children in exchange for
not requiring him to pay child support and

it strikes me that those children were

association with both parents and

the financial support of both parents that
they have a legal right to accept and so

as a consequence frequently when parents
don't support their own children

then the taxpayer has to
pick up pick up the tab but

actually the story ended well because he
told me that once we took him to court.

And the judge ordered him to pay child
support he also ordered his wife former

wife to let him see the kids and he told
me we're back together again as a family

so happy ending to that story good
glad to hear the center wouldn't.

Fehrman would take your THINK THINK you.

Very much Mr Chairman I want to apologize
to all our guests we also are dealing with

the budget agreement on the floor which is
very important to a whole host of domestic

programs and I think was the judgment
that we have Chairman Hatch here and

I would go to the floor and I think to
some extent will be shuttling back and

forth I'm going to spare all of
you my opening statement and

just ask you know kind of one question
the late President Reagan said and

I think it really says it
all that the very best

program the best program in
this space is a job that was

the judgment of a conservative
Republican who has looked doing and

has been for literally decades for
the philosophical kind of underpinnings

of what was important to the party I
gather before I came man you all have.

Had some discussion about employment and
I would just like to you and

perhaps we can start out with
the authors of this wonderful book

that I enjoyed reading we could start with

What do you think the best way is for

people to get these jobs these
entry level positions and

then how do you evaluate the programs
because you're been in a variety of these

programs in the in the past and
I think that

if since the chairman's been
kind enough after I was out and

missed a fair amount to give me this
chance to ask 11 question I would

be interested in hearing your thoughts
on that to start with what is the best

path for people to get these
jobs in the private economy and

how best Should we go about it as
legislators trying to evaluate which

programs work and which don't when
we just go right down the line.

Sure thanks so as I referred to in
my testimony there are a number

of rigorous evaluation of different
programs many focused on start with

the 1st part of the question what's the
best path for people to get the jobs and

then we'll talk about the evaluation
Yes So the best top to get the job right.

For the individuals who have tried
been out there in the labor market

maybe had sporadic work and
lost it is to get

assistance from programs
in as as Miss Jackson

said in how to get prepared to look for
work how to best do that and

to gain the necessary skills
to be able to get that job so

having assistance and
programs that can help people with that so

that they can go out and get the job
that's that's the best way is is

there a program that you think is one of
the best models we should be looking at

there are there are a number of
really give one or 2 programs so.

So there's a number of school programs
that are dealing in what we call sectoral

space like looking at industries and
trying to work with industries and

employers in those industries to get
people low skilled people into jobs and

apply in the door there is an evaluation
of 3 of these sectoral programs one is

Instituto in Chicago doing wonderful work
in helping people get better skilled jobs

J.D.S. in Boston another one that
worked to help people so there

are programs that are in America works is
a program that that Mr actually mention

there are programs that are doing this and
really being successful others now.

OK I think the 1st thing
there we need to address

is build a self efficacy because when

we're unable to see ourselves equipped or

able we're stuck in our
environment the world is

not where we actually live we
live only in our communities and

in our environments because we're
not involved with the workforce and

with the outside world per se so

I think starting there is
very important in the eye

the reason I say to is because I believe
that's where America work started with me.

Jen and her crew they did offer all
the resources to help me get a job but

has she not dealt with of me and my
personal issues not like us I colleges or

whatever other they did
have a few neat training.

Has she not dealt with that I still would
not have been employed very good to share.

I would concur with what's already been
said but I would also just say coming out

of my experience writing $2.00 a day I
firmly believe we need to do something to

increase the number of
job opportunities for

people at the very bottom the last data
that I looked like there were that there

was a 2000000 jobs shortage between just
the number of people who are actively

seeking work in the number
of jobs available and

that's exacerbated especially in these
communities that have high levels

of chronic poverty so we need to do things
that I think we need to have public and

private partnerships we have some
experience with this just recently

the federal government through the town
of emergency fund sponsored a short term

program that allowed states to subsidize
positions in a very short term we created


it was very popular with employers
it was very popular bipartisan with

states and so I think a program
that both creates positions for

folks who cannot compete in the in
the in the private sector itself

with a lot of wrap around services
that can can and can help with self

efficacy is what's really it's going to
take to put a dent in that when I look at

the New Hope program out of Milwaukee
it did just that there was a guaranteed

temporary job that folks could access as
well as a lot of services to help them

be successful in to your
question I would say.

I think these types of programs might
have modest effects on earnings but

we start to see effects in all
sorts of other domains criminal

justice right there's a program in
New York that paid for itself with X.

offenders coming out simply by reducing
recidivism which is of course very

expensive in New Hope actually we saw
a decade after randomized trials so

this is a randomized trial and 80 percent
increase in marriage rates among never

married mothers single mothers at the time
that they enter the program now I haven't

seen a marriage promotion that
gets an 80 percent increase.

Very very high popping figure so I think
we really need to look broadly with these

programs not just on long term earnings
but what does it do to mental health

Jennifer and it says it eloquently when I
have a job I have a sense of purpose and

I think it's what a lot of us
think about our jobs and so

I think we should think that poor families
you know feeling exactly the same way

my time's up The Chairman How much
would be passed over Utah fell.

The question is the best path forward for
many of these

individuals Utah is in a great position
with a 3.6 percent unemployment rate in

a 3.9 percent job growth rate one of the
most diverse economies in this country so

the opportunity for our families or
maybe in a better position than some of

the other states certainly understanding
the labor market and the demands of

business and positions that are available
and we currently have in our system our

labor exchange system about 25000 job
openings in Utah across the state so

I understand in the labor market what the
demand is certainly the high school GED

component of people obtaining jobs
is an important piece if you haven't

received a high school diploma completing
your GED skills training has been

mentioned making sure that we're training
people in the skill set that's going to

get them employed and an occupation
that will be self-sustaining and

long term and have opportunity to grow
within a in an organization I think

connecting to the workforce system more
in a unique position where can I fit in

the workforce estimates under Department
of Workforce Services in Utah and

that's an important piece of the puzzle
the workforce system is successful in

attaching recipients to that system
I think is an important piece for

states to consider one program that

has shown great success in Utah it's
called work success and it's a.

Intensive program that requires recipients

as a part of the work success program
to be a part of that 40 hours a week

it's about networking it's
understanding the labor market social.

Media how to build a resume how to
interview to really prepare and

then go out and try to pursue
opportunities for an interview and

then get your foot in the door in a in
a company so work success has about a 70

percent placement rate
currently in Utah and

then lastly I think a retention component
How do we keep people in jobs and

to do that when they have lot life
struggles how do we best support them so

that they retain their jobs and
not find a lot of transition or turnover.

Lastly there's a difference between
situational and intergenerational poverty

and I talked about this in my testimony
it's a different set of strategies for

families that are in generational
poverty situational folks typically can

get attached the labor market relatively
quickly with the rules that we provide

with intergenerational family there
sporadically attached the labor market so

that's what we're trying to learn
with our next generation kids

project in our state to learn really what
helps the adults but also focusing on

the children we have to help the children
prepare themselves to be adults and

successful adults in our in our states and
what are those key things that

are outlined in our report that you
have to make sure that the kids

are well equipped to be successful as
they grow up and then become adults and

attach themselves to the labor market
thanks to you all think it's and.

I've been called to the floor so she would
take over and under benefits next to me.

Senator at least for me for leaving early
but I've got some very very important

duties of so just to work in the today

just talk with we just let me say that
I'm very appreciative of this testimony

it's been very helpful each one of you
has been a tremendous help to us I'm

very proud of you to offer what we've
been able to thank you Senator.

Senator Bennett thank you
thank you Mr Chairman and

I want to think Chairman Hatch from.

Much for holding this hearing it's
a rarity in this Congress that we

focus on these issues so delighted with
the witnesses that are here I have one

suggestion that Senator Wyden at the
outset about what we might do that's not

a government program to help with this
issue which is we could raise the minimum

wage in this country to have a single
mother of 2 kids working for

$7.25 still be below the poverty
line because we have allowed

the minimum wage to collapse of the last

with your permission I'd like to submit to
the record a piece in today's political

newspaper by the lead directly at
Cosco calling on other companies to

raise the minimum wage I share your view
and it's in the record thank you note I've

appreciated that and now to the panel and
I'll start maybe with you Dr Shafer

all across the country is as chairman had
said today one in 5 children are living

in poverty which according to at
least one report is far higher than

any other developed country in
the world except for Romania and

about 40 percent of children it's
estimated will be poor at least one year

before they turn 18 that's about
$29000000.00 of today's children

in the United States these numbers
are staggering they're not obviously just

numbers it's human lives in what we think
of as the greatest country in the world

poverty is not something in this country
that exists only for a handful of children

in some cities in America the experiences
of children in poverty and

the challenges they and their families
face are almost commonplace today.

And that should be unacceptable
to everybody in this building and

the politics that are so corrosive in this
place should be utterly unacceptable when

we're facing that kind of challenge as a
country and I think to start it's helpful

for all of us to understand what it's
like for a child to be living in poverty

what are their daily experiences what
are the common obstacles they must

overcome that people in this room and
on this panel would never even imagine and

I was particularly struck by your
account in your book of Tabitha

living in the Mississippi Delta an area
of the country my wife is from.

And I wondered whether you might
be willing to share her story with

with the panel today.

Well I can say among the families that we
study do there visit the very poorest of

the poor I would say actually share
with poor families more generally.

Just a striking instability in
life instability in jobs so

those who are able to get jobs often
see fluctuations in the number and

timing of work hours that they have
that you can imagine makes it hard to.

Plan for childcare and then of course
the cost of housing has gotten.

To be such a crisis point for many poor
families we have millions of poor families

and children who are spending more than
half of their incomes on housing so

we saw this incredible
residential instability families

moving quite constantly and I think being
how it's quite precarious Lee in this

leaves children vulnerable when we talk
about the inner generational transmission

of poverty it's been our experience that
that happens through the experience of

trauma as I think
Director Pierpoint pointed to that

when you're precariously have sort of
doubled up you're more risk if somebody

wants to take advantage of you in an often
cases there's no one looking out for

children so the Mississippi Delta
as you pointed out has been.

One of the most chronically poor parts
of the country for generations and

I would say it was our experience.

That.

The challenges faced by
minute these small towns

were an order of magnitude worse
than we saw in everywhere else and

in a big part of that was because
the institutions were set to serve

the most vulnerable in many cases it off
and break broken down so the tablet.

As you mentioned grew up or
she was from a very large family

I think her mother had suffered abuse and.

Over the course of her life.

And so she knew the constant experience
of going hungry often the lights would

be sort of out for 2 weeks out of the out
of a month and and they'd be hungry for

a month so imagine sort of living in the
dark 7 kids sort of piled up in a bed at

night no lights and
going hungry in her own words she said.

We asked her what is it
like to be hungry and

she says it makes you feel like you want
to be dead and for a child to experience

that I think is is not what should be
acceptable in America Miss Jackson

if you looked at anything I just got
a minute of to vote would the kind of

instability Dr Shafer talked about or
other perspectives that you might have.

As far is as far as what
are the experiences that you have

living in poverty your children
have living in poverty that

people on this panel might
not even think about.

Because they haven't lived the way you
have well I came from what I think Mr.

Pierpoint described as the generational
poverty my mom was 24 when she had me I'm

only young his of 7 so she raised 7
children as a single parent and party.

She she had dropped out of school but went
back and got her degree in became a chef.

Once she started work and she was she was
at home alive and well happened says.

As we put our as we go back
to work a single parents

that put our kids children home alone so
now it's totally

different when you don't have those
resources of the Lobel in reference to.

Being able to have an adult with
your town Well you go to work for

instance I took a job in Philadelphia so
there I wouldn't

continue to be unemployed there was
a year ago but I have a child just of and

school he's here with me today because
I don't have family in Philadelphia so

I wanted to be here I brought him with me
and of course got excused from school but

the point is if I was if I had
more of a support system and

didn't have to take a job in another state
you know because most people has been

been in that is where I have been or

not take a job in a different state to
get out of that situation I think me been

in the military is the only reason why I
had the courage to go to transition from

state to state the way I have thank
you Mr Jackson thank you Mr Chairman.

Thank you Mr Chairman I don't know that
I've ever done this at a committee hearing

but I would just and that is to suggest
that people read a book by name and

I will allow my I would just
ask everybody in this room

all of us to to read $2.00 a day
I think it puts people in a.

Frame of Mind in understanding that
most of us that dress like this and

have great titles and have been relatively
affluent to much of our lives or

all of our lives will get an understanding
that wouldn't get it's and

it's in the tradition of
James Agee's book in the 1930 S.

Let Us Now Praise Famous Men
in the 1960 S.

Herrington book about poverty in America
and I would urge people to do that and

I just want to say a couple of comments
about the book itself what struck me

what struck me about $2.00 a day more than
anything 2 things struck me the 1st thing

was how entrepreneurial people
who are desperately poor

are the woman in this a sippy who had
I believe the only freezer in her

neighborhood bought
Kool-Aid Dixie Cups popsicle sticks.

And for $0.50 if I remember
Dr Shafer popsicles that she made.

The people that sit as used as one of you
you are Dr Ian Sattler both of you sat

at the bus stop in Cleveland and
watched a bus hourly come by discord 6 or

center to sell for $30.00 and

some had to take iron pills because
their plasma would've qualified.

Woman you mention and again my hometown
I live in the city of Cleveland.

For for 105 had the highest
number of foreclosures of any zip

code in America in 2007
it's better now but

not enough better one woman that
lived not far from where I love.

I live in a nicer neighborhood for sure
than she did but she would have a job at

Wal-Mart in Parma as you mentioned she was
employee or cashier of the week or month.

Twice she lost her job because she didn't
have the $10.00 to put gas in her truck

as it was taken by somebody
else as you mentioned

the scrappers in Cleveland in Chicago and
in many other cities that

they get a shopping cart from
the local Hine INS or the local.

Dave supermarket and look for
aluminum cans and look for

it abandoned houses in the aluminum or
any metals they can get I mean these

are incredibly entrepreneurial people so
I just bristle as I know this whole panel

does because all of you are public
servants in your own way from the military

to the state of Utah I bristle when I hear
people say they don't want to work and

they're lazy and they're shiftless and
all those vaguely racist sometimes but

terrible comments regardless of how
you might you might characterize them.

But the other part of the book that
is much more optimistic is how well

the Earned Income Tax Credit works it's
not it's not big enough it's not permanent

yet the chairman I know very much of
the sort of thing just Chairman for

a moment anyway he was chairman last year.

Senator Wyden I know everybody in
this panel wants to make it permanent

wants to keep the expansion and do better
with the Earned Income Tax Credit and

the child tax credit
what that can mean for

bringing millions as you point
out in your book Dr Shafer

conductor Eden Here's your co-author of
prodding bringing millions out of poverty.

Because they were doing the right thing
I would echo Senator Bennett's comments

about minimum wage Cosco
which I would also add

a company that I'm not into advertising
private sector ventures today but

I guess I will cost go has
has much less turnover than

other large companies that do what they
do a big box retailers because they pay

better wages they have less turnover they
do all that not saying you should shop at

Costco instead of Wal-Mart but
if there's one near your house anyway.

So my question is this when I talk talk I
just want you Dr Shafer to talk a little

more about work and you've done that but
I want to kind of pull it out and

I know I've taken most of my 5 minutes but

you can take as long as you want
that's kind of the rules you're

just talk about to the rules you're new
you're still relatively new this is it.

Became a few years after I did so talk
talk just talk about the role of work in

people's lives and why you know whatever
percent 99 percent of people really do

want to work and contribute side just when
you were living with these people you saw

homes with 20 people in them in Cleveland
in Chicago in Johnson City in the Delta

just talk about the seriousness
of work the necessity to work

the intrinsic need to work in
the joy of work for so many of these

people that are really are entrepreneurial
fundamentally in many ways.

Well thank you for
your kind words about the book and and

the endorsement we have heard that our
book is is on the depressing side so

I would apologize for
that but say Senator.

Exactly what Senator Brown picked out
I think the things one is the I mean

this real entrepreneurial.

Motivation in a way that you really see to
me and it's really I'm an American story

of people taking whatever
resources they had and and

doing what they had that to do
right by their children and

there's of course always bad actors but
you know in in any fear but

in this case I think we really just saw
that come through it was unfortunate

that a lot of the activities that families
can generate a little bit of resources for

their families actually leave them open
to felonies so Martha Johnson who created

the story she actually had a whole
candy shop in or in her living room.

And with the popsicles that she sold for

$0.50 to anyone who would come as
she bought those resources with her.

SNAP card and
this I think constitutes at least by

the book's a felony so in many cases you
would see families that would have to do.

Things that broke the law whether
it was using their bodies but

you know we saw Paul while they're also in
Cleveland too they when they had $22.00

people packed into their $1100.00 square
foot house and the water got turned off

they jury rigged the garbage can under the
rain spout to collect the rainwater and

that's how they flush the toilet so you
know I think there was a lot in there now

you mention the T.C. and I would say one
thing we really came away in this study

was thinking about a litmus test for
any policy any program and

I think it came out clearly in all of
our comments today that our programs for

poor families should seek to
incorporate them into society whether

rather than isolate them from it in
this sounds like a simple premise but

I want to be clear that as Mr Jackson
pointed out the history of welfare policy

in this country has been one
of of she mean of stigma and

of isolation in and
I think this sort of drive to work

is a part of that people want
to be a part of society and

sometimes they don't have the resources
they don't have the human capital

the families that can help them and
in those cases I think we just need to

have incredible programs like
director Pierpont that can help

sort of people get the skills and get in
in some cases I think we need to create

you know more jobs that will
relieve the pressure all around but

the E I T C does this better than
any other program that we have and

you don't have to go to the welfare
office you don't have to put up with with

a caseworker who's looking down at you
you go file your taxes it's one of

the most American things we do right and
Except they look forward to tax time and

of course I don't usually but
no offense to all of them but.

This is you know I think this is something
we can build on and I think it's why.

Looking for work and
looking for a way it's.

The more comprehensive way outside of you
know a few good examples connect people

connect people to jobs and
increase economic opportunity that's what

families want when we ask them if
you're in a year you're doing better

what would it look like none of them said
I would be on a cash safety net you know

Program Now I happen to think we need
a functioning cash safety net and an F.

in my opinion is wholly failing
in its stated purpose but

what they would point to is work so for
going to start from where people are I

think that's where policy should go
thank you one brief comes chairman and

I appreciate your saying all of that
Senator Bennett always mentioned C.T.C.

with the I.T.C. I sometimes forget that
and I think the importance of always

linking them as we talk about permanence
as we talk about expansion is we talk

about mistakes made in filing and
we had a moment last really or

this week in the last year and
we did were I will not mention a name but

there was a I have talked about this at
many hearings in that what was the I.R.S.

hearing that the that the mistakes and

Earned Income Tax Credit are not fraud
they're just badly filling out filling out

with some errors these these
are the applications that

I rest needs some authority from
us to be able to correct those so

in a number of people of my colleagues
have called that fraud in the past one

senator who would I had heard
say fraud is now talking with us

about fixing it in a way that it
really is the way to do it and

I'm encouraged by that that this can be
bipartisan as E I T C C T C Thank you

we're from the Reagan years on and it's
a real opportunity to lift a lot of people

out of poverty with showing the kind
of respect that we can so thank you so

much thank you Senator Senator Brown just
before we recognize our colleagues and

also want to note the tenor Brown's
point with respect to bipartisanship was

also highlighted in this last exchange

Mr Schaffer many of us who
are progressive really the think so

highly of your book and
we're quoting it we're using it.

Talking about it frequently but

I think it was noteworthy that
Mr Shafer singled out Mr Pierpont and

conservative and state it's always
been conservative in politics for

programs that work so there's a real
chance here colleagues to find some

common ground as Senator Brown was talking
about on the Earned Income Tax Credit and

I thought that last exchange with
Mr Schaffer praising the folks in Utah for

stepping up really highlights
the possibilities here sentiment and

us thank you Mr Chairman thank you all for

your testimony in a now because we had
a foreign relations nomination so.

I think it's an incredibly
important hearing today

I don't think we spent enough
time on these questions.

And I also think while the goals
of welfare reform 20 years ago to

encourage people to work and move people

from welfare to self-sustaining economic
freedom were certainly desirable and

laudable it seems to me that the end
result is a program that has

utterly failed to respond to
the needs of people receiving.

The very help it purports to to
accomplish in the past 20 years

the number of people receiving cash
assistance is down to 26 out of 100

needy families from 68 out
of 100 in one $996.00 and

because the town of program is not indexed
for inflation and has received funding

since 1996 resulting in a net
loss to states of $300000000.00

a year and because the program isn't tied
to overarching economic conditions it

can't respond as needed so if you look at
them if you look at the graph from where

we started in welfare reform and go down
even in recessionary periods you don't

see a response that would
be reasonable to expect.

In fact in my state of
New Jersey there's been a 25

percent decrease in the number of
families helped by Tennyson's 2010 and

an unbelievable 80 percent reduction
since its exception in 1996 and

even during the Great Recession
we did not see any uptick so

this sharp decline in both the quality and
the quantity of assistance we provide to

those in need shouldn't come as a major
surprise but instead I am concerned that

we may see it as the coming attractions
for further plans including by some

of my colleagues on the other side of
their aisle who want the blockbuster goal

of block granting the Medicaid program and
that to me is a recipe for

disaster we have already seen how damaging
block grants to states can be for

providing basic assistance
to those most in need and

I think it's absolutely imperative we
don't allow the same thing to happen in

necessary medical care now
you can have innovation.

And greater efforts of proven
programs that can move

to self-sufficiency without necessarily
walk renting at the end of the day.

This committee has jurisdiction over
a wide swath of programs aimed at

people in need and they've been referenced
here in addition to 10 of the C.T.C.

in the I.T.C. and to me that
encourages and rewards people to work

rather than punishing them for
being unable to find work even when

Americans who have been gainfully
employed can't find work.

And so even in those periods where
Americans who have been gainfully employed

can't find work and
maybe were never on any assistance program

even in those periods of time we
still have an attitude of punishment.

And so I think we need to focus
on how we reward work and

I want to piggy back Dr Shafer on.

The comments made by my colleague Senator
Brown in your testimony and in your book.

You discussed the unifying
trait of all families.

That you studied in
the overwhelming desire to work and

to provide for their children.

That's totally counter to the myth of the
so-called social welfare queen that helped

push reform in the ninety's so
can you talk a little bit more about

the desire what you found of
families desire to work and

if you think that that desire would
lessen if we make structural reforms

to Tanna to increase assistance and
provide more to struggling families.

When there is a transitional period and.

How do we best meet that desire the desire
to work and to provide for your families.

So coming out of out of the schools so
sure as well as a school of public policy

I was actually struck by a number
of our folks who talked about work.

Not not specifically using these words but

what we found was they were really talking
about work as a mental health intervention

that when they when they had the resources
they were helped with the resources to get

work they found that the structure in
their life the ability to give meaning and

I do think it goes back to this desire to
contribute to society and the feeling of.

Being worthless are often a result
of feeling like you have nothing to

contribute right in and work is
the defining way that this country.

Makes a contribution right it's a way
that we all define ourselves and so

if you feel cut off from that.

Then you really are isolated Now you
asked the question about if we if we if

we remade some reforms to Tanna would it
change that in in my opinion the biggest.

Problems with the N F
have to do with that.

It's tremendous complexity that allows for
lots of loopholes from

the work requirement there are many many
states that have very very small work

requirements because they're able to take
advantage of loopholes in the law or

you know technical details.

And also block grant structure
the way it is designed puts perverse

incentives actually not to invest
in programs that that help

if the goal of Tenet was actually
sort of provide temporary cushion and

do away with long term dependency and
let you know the states innovate

on what kind of work programs they
might have I think we failed in that.

Regard.

At the worst the town of program
what it does is actually.

Allows states to reallocate substitute or
supplant state funding with federal

funding so that there is no benefit at
all to federal taxpayers that it simply

taking money keeping cash assistance
caseload low keeping work

which putting people to work is expensive
you know let's be honest about that but

keep those expenses low in in move money
into say the foster care system which

is in some cases many
states are paying for.

College scholarships for.

Childless people and

the parameters by which you can use
your tan of black granite is so

broad as to just allow a lot of this and
frankly fill state budget gaps and

you might imagine as you mention as
the overall level of resources shrinks

with inflation and states continue to be
strapped What are the chances they're

going to reallocate money back to
a program like cash assistance so

I think we could make fundamental
changes to block grant that would both.

Improve the.

Improve the ability to be
a safety net as as well as

improve its ability to help put people to
work sort of incentivize putting resources

towards that and I think the most
comprehensive treatment of this actually

was written it's a white paper Tenet is
broken which many of you may have seen by

Peter Germanicus who was
a former White House staffer and

goes sort of detail by detail
all of the technical details.

As he says we got wrong.

So in there.

Thank you Thunder Man and at center Casey.

I thank the ranking member also
want to thank the the chairman for

calling this hearing.

And.

It's nice to have a little
extra time to with it and

I'm I'll take a little bit of
extra time but not too much but

it's helpful because this is
a subject about which we don't debate

enough don't spend enough time on I want
to start with the New Testament there's.

A line in the New Testament
where Jesus is quoted as saying.

The poor you shall always have with you.

I guess over time a much debated line what
that means some I guess could interpret

it in the context of our
our political debates as.

Though always be a high number of poor
people and that's just the way life is.

I think most of us here would
interpret it another way and

I think the appropriate way.

Which is he you're going to
have poor people in society and

you've got to do something about that
you've got to work an actor reduce that

number it's especially urgent
it comes to children and

if you want to talk about a subject that
we don't spend enough time on it's this

children in poverty Why what can we do
about it what were we not doing I did

start that both both houses and
folks in the House and

the Senate both parties aren't doing
enough none of us are doing enough on

this and certainly not doing as much
as the people in front of us don't.

Want to thank the panel for your testimony
and for your kind of living witness about

what this means and what we must
do about it Secondly I want to

to mention some numbers we've got
all kinds of numbers flying around.

The the most recent number I've seen for
to the for 2014 got a lot

of 2013 numbers the 2014 number is about

The NE Casey Foundation no relation to me

the great foundation
the tracks these numbers.

They put out a one pager for
a number of years now and

this is my marked up version of it and

broken down into 4 segments just
Mr Pierpont just like yours

in Utah similar economic
wellbeing education health and

family community as it relates to
children and the green in this chart

means that the numbers have
gotten better since 2007 to 2008.

And that's good and we should highlight
one when numbers are getting better

unfortunately the numbers that are getting
worse are the subject of this hearing.

Child poverty worsens 2008 children
whose parents lack secure employment

worse since 2008.

Children not attending preschool
that number got worse.

Not by a lot percentage wise but a big
big number according to them Children

not attending preschool

than 4400000 across the country so I go
through all the number of children living

in high power to areas higher children
single parents for Families are so

the numbers are way up what do we do about
it well one thing we can do and I want to

ask the panel to give your your point of
view on once the top recommendation you

would make for us to reduce these numbers
that's my question before I do that

I want to highlight a bill I'm interesting
today the House has a similar version or

interest recently Child Poverty Reduction
Act basically done what the U.K.

did which is just set a target.

And figure out a way to to reach
the target the U.K. could.

Set a child poverty target and resulting
policy changes cut their child poverty

rate by 50 percent in a decade where
our bill would do was would be to.

Set a target of reducing the number of
children living in poverty by half and

goal pursuant to the bill

develop a plan develop recommendations
as to what's working now and

what's not working right now so
that's what

that's one thing we can do to least set
a target and to work towards that but.

I'll go right to left and

go down the list of well if you
had if you had an opportunity

to say one thing the Congress of the
United States should do what would it be.

I don't believe that there's one
solution I believe there are several

part of what we have done
is dug deep into the data

to really understand what families
are faced with what their challenges

are certainly with a keen interest
on how the children are doing and

there are a couple things that I can
highlight as a part of my report

that stand out and you mentioned it is
access to high quality preschool and

afterschool programs preparing kids for

kindergarten extended day kindergarten
ensuring that they're prepared to

succeed in the school system so
that's one example another would be

access to health care making sure the
children have access to dental care and

health care screenings our
data shows that they're not.

Going to Dr every year and
how do you best support kids

in the in the health area and so there
are several others that are in there but

certainly I believe this committee as
you look at Santa Fe and other programs

it's an understanding of how the children
are performing how they're doing and

a conversation about what needs to be done
differently with the programs to include

the children in the dialogue
Thank you Dr Shafer.

Well I have to go with what.

We heard from from the families in
our in our book which is that I would

make a concerted effort to increase
economic opportunity at the very

bottom I would see if we could make
the next generation a jobs generation and

I think these types of initiatives should
probably be placed based I think they

can be done through public and private
partnerships and maybe they would be

done with with the notion of improving
infrastructure of which we have many

problems and
I think these these types of programs are.

Would probably need lots of wrap around
services to help place families into jobs

and keep them in those jobs that say
as they experience crisis points let me

just note for the record I was struck
by the searing statistic from from your

testimony I'm page one as of
$2111500000.00 households with

$3000000.00 children reporting fashion
comes with no more than $2.00 per day

per day up from $100.00 up on a 30
percent from 15 years ago so your your

data your research shows that since the 10
if was passed as Senator Menendez on one.

You got $3000000.00 more kids
living in $2.00 a day Yes.

That's right up 130 percent and this is
consistent across a series of indicators

both from household survey data from our
administrative Pallies we see a similar

increase the number of homeless school
children as reported by our schools so

I think when you see all of these
indicators moving in the right direction

you can say pretty clearly that
circumstances are getting worse

at the very bottom Well in fact in some
ways the government does far more for

families around the poverty line
just above the poverty line before

then it's ever done before and
I think we can be proud about that.

Jackson thank you for your service and
what would you hope we would do

I would hope that Congress
will put more resources into

organizations like the one there
Mr Perry point has gone to Utah.

America Works organizations like that.

So I started a nonprofit in 2005 A single
parents and it didn't go anywhere

because I didn't have the education or
experience to actually get it going but

what Mr Perry Pierpoint spoke about
those were all of the things that I

had outlined in his nonprofit
to be able to assist.

Families my biggest thing when
I did my research was single

parents the party it impacts
everybody already does

not just stay below the poverty line
it impacts the entire country and

if we do know I mean well we
Congress has to do is understand

that now I understand you cause I
know you understand sometimes but it.

Is just understand that
the people that are in poverty.

I lost my thought just a moment.

The people I am Parvathy are.

Some are generational and
some are situation like.

There has been say what assy is
we do have a lot of programs that

focus on the children however the single
parents are the ones that really have

to be re to be dealt with they
the ones there have to be.

Realize and of course you have to
make sure their way you teach them or

you train them or you redirect them
that you look out the for away or

fear of the children but I really believe
that put more emphasis or the person

as opposed to just shoving out money is
more important if that makes any sense to.

Talk to a person were down to
maybe 20 seconds that's money for.

This behavior and now I because I agree
with every reference I think that

the most important thing is to make work
opportunity and to think that when you

think about child poverty and we know
the persistence of child poverty how

devastating it is that helping those
children's parents to be able to work and

take care of the children is the number
one way I think to help them out of

poverty we need all of the other programs
but helping them to be able to provide for

their families and investing in that
opportunity it's what's important

thank you very much thank
you Senator Casey stamina.

Let's thank you very much
Mr Ranking Member and

into the chairman for having this hearing
which is incredibly important and

I want to thank all of our witnesses
particularly Dr Shafer who are very proud

to have as a professor at the Gerald Ford
School of Public Policy at the University

of Michigan in Ann Arbor and
as has been said a lot by our

colleagues your book
is very important it's

jaw dropping and eye popping and
it examines what we're really confronting

today in a very real way by talking
to the people themselves and

so thank you for that and thank you
to all of you for your testimony.

When we look at this in America right now
we are facing a huge crisis in America

a poverty crisis and we can't just say
this is because people don't want to work

I mean as as you've said Dr Shafer
people view themselves as workers and

in fact in many many many cases
they're working 1234 part time jobs or

trying to piece it together and
in fact what I find it astounding

statistic is that if we actually
enforced equal pay for equal work for

women half the women in poverty today
would be left out of poverty so

that their policy things that we can
do it along with a livable wage and

making sure that when folks are hit down
hit because of the global economy or

tax policies that are rewarding
plants going overseas.

Or the lack of investment and job training
there are things that we can do to support

what all of you are doing and that's why I
think this hearing is very important I do

want to just reiterate as we're going to
be bringing this hearing to a close today

what we are talking about in terms of
the crisis in this country nearly 47000000

Americans are living in poverty
about 20000000 in deep poverty.

Nobody wants to be in that situation.

And nearly 106000000 Americans are on
the brink of falling into poverty so

they're holding they were in
the middle class they've fallen down

they're trying to hold on so
they don't find themselves losing every

On the latter and what colleagues
have said so importantly is

that one out of 5 children in the future
for us and what does that mean for

them 10 or 15 percent are seniors and
frankly if we didn't have Medicare and

we didn't have Medicaid we didn't have
social security which have been safety

nets that have lifted the generation out
of poverty there'd be a whole lot more

senior citizens in poverty today so
these things have actually worked and

then I could go on and on but I would
just say and one out of 7 are women and

unique challenges for
women with children and so.

Our history in Hamburg this is very very
important and we're talking about moms and

dads and Grampa's and
grandmothers and folks that just

wanted a chance to make it in the greatest
country in the world they're looking for

opportunity and so my question really
goes to what we're doing about this and

we've talked a lot about Tan have and
the reality is.

I met New York Times article this
week laid out a number of issues with

the program and in you have spoken about
some of those but flat funding for

all talking about how I was certainly

electricity costs have gone up
food gas grant school clothes

Everything's gone up but
support for low income

individuals to be able to move
out of poverty has been flat for

$20.00 yards 2 decades Secondly this is
a block grant with minimal oversight and

I am very concerned about that
because I think when you put those 2

things together a block grant with very
little accountability flat funding we've

seen devastating realities as a result
of that particularly for children and

now only 9 in every 100 poor families 9

I 100 poor families actually benefits from
this program those put into place and

in the ninety's it was 55 percent So
my question goes to a little bit more

about what we can do from a block grant
status because my concern is we have seen

Republican budgets passed in the House and
in the Senate that would block grant more

things that's block grant Medicaid
left block grant food programs without

accountability a deep concern because I
don't see where this approach has actually

worked and so my question for
each of you would be.

You know what can we do to
provide more oversight so

in fact the block grant approach works or
do it differently or

do you think that it has worked I guess
all the numbers that I see show that

it's not working but if we're going
to do more it particularly so

that those who are eligible can receive
cash income that they so desperately need.

What can we do to change a program
that clearly has not kept up with

the times in terms of the challenges
that families are experiencing

Mr Pierpoint start with
you just thank you.

I believe that giving states
the flexibility they need to innovate and

to sort of their communities and

their citizens is the right approach I'm
not familiar with what other states may or

may not be doing in regards to their block
around I believe ours is successful I

think that some opportunity is ally
with aligning federal agencies

to more accurately identify outcomes that
are uncommon I mean I administer food

stamp the step program the child care
program 10 of program the Wagner Pizer

funding with workforce programs in
alignment of outcomes is an important

piece for us it becomes difficult to
provide a fact of service delivery

mechanism when you're trying to meet the
needs of all of the different programs so

I believe trying to eliminate the silos as
much as we can that's part of what we're

doing with understanding our data that
we've been working on over the last 4

years is how do you then once you
understand the challenges of the families

in regards to Tanna food stamps Medicaid
the programs that are on how do you shape

the programs to best address those
needs and that's what we're trying to

do now is to to look at our
programs look at our policies and

how do we align not only
within Workforce Services But

Department of Human Services and the other
agencies that are part of our commission

to then be more effective in the way you
deliver the programs to the families and

I think I would just ask one thing because
clearly you are focused on that and very

much appreciate all the work that you're
doing but if the state isn't doing that.

There's no accountability for
that right now.

Should there be some
benchmark some some different

accountability if if if every state is not
doing the kind of thoughtful approach that

you are I would encourage that they move
in that direction how about her not so

I do think it has a light on our programs
in a way that we may have not understood

it in the past and it takes a lot of
effort and it takes leadership and

it takes the will to really understand
what works and what doesn't and then have

the ability and desire to change to make
it more effective for the family so I do

think there should be accountability but I
think you 1st have to understand the data

in the situation that you're faced with
in your state Thank you Dr Shafer.

I I'm afraid I tend to agree with Peter
German as in the way paper Dan if it's

broken in his assessment that the Block
Grant structure I don't see a conceivable

way where the black and structure is
a is a good way to do a social policy

to do a social welfare policy in the case
and if I think if we were going to

start somewhere it would be trying to
close some of these loopholes that allow

states to simply fill their budget gaps
while providing no actual increased

support to poor families I don't
think it was policy makers and

tent for that to be a primary function
of the Tanach program that only


would go to basic assistance that only
a very tiny amount would actually go to

supporting work programs and

I think if if we wanted to
work more in the ways that

it was intended we need to
figure out ways to simplify so

that there aren't numerous loopholes
I'll give you just one more example

that many states actually use 3rd party
maintenance of effort funds rate so

they count as part of their
contribution to 10 F.

what nonprofits are doing
in their communities so

they're not actually spending any money
whatsoever on their own programs.

Or not in fact it goes beyond that it's
not just the expenditures of these

programs in some cases they're actually
counting the volunteer hours as meat and

effort and I just don't think this was
ever what was intended for the program so

I'm not of a mindset that there is
a good way to do this is a blocker and

I think once you close one loophole that
we know the great American spirit you know

I think people will innovate and
find other loopholes to work through in so

in some ways simplicity
is better right and I.

I am not I want to be clear I'm not
advocating for returned to if D.C.

I don't think that was
a successful program either.

But I think we should have a cash
assistance program that does at least what

we think it should be did
what it's supposed to do and

right now we don't thank you Mr Jackson
thank you again for your service you know

the way that I can answer is I know in
the military when things don't work

the adze KOMO they inspect
they tell us Ro you fix it you

don't fix it you get in trouble so it's
kind of like that's what you have to do.

Very logical very I thank
you very much Dr Love it so

I agree with Dr Shafer that
the Block Grant structure is difficult to.

To make workable but I do think also
that Congress has not abdicated all its

ability to provide provide some
incentives and encouragement and

structures around what you can do with the
block grant them we discussion is you know

Congress has set the rules of what can be
used so I do think even within the block

structure you can to make changes that
will encourage more spending on cash

assistance encourage more spending on work
and some of the performance indicators and

making things more efficient as Mr pare
point and said connecting to we not

making states have to run around and spend
a lot of administrative dollars wasted

I think it's important to look through
the center card and had no chance and

no Senator Bennett wanted to ask
an additional question Senator Cardin.

Mr Chairman I've been enjoying this
discussion obviously had to yield 1st to

Senator Bennett and then I'll take my
great I know he has a 2nd round and

I haven't had my 1st but I'm more than
happy and that is enormously kind and

hard on usually kind gesture around
this place I deeply appreciate it

I wanted to come Mr Pierpoint
to the point you were

making a minute ago when I was
superintend the demo public schools.

I felt like.

So much of what we did was comply with
what the federal government told us was

important to county and that by the time
these siloed programs got to our kids.

They were sewed separated
from each other and so

distinct from each other that you couldn't
actually serve the whole kid if it were up

to me it's not unfortunately up to me.

We'd have a standing committee of the
Senate that was focused on our kids and

on their future and the question the 1st
question would be asking ourselves is how

do we align all the well intentioned
programs that we have so

that when they actually
get to the local level.

But you've got the ability to be able
to serve kids and serve families so

I wonder if you would 2 points
here $11.00 Dr Shafer also.

We need a feedback loop coming from
the field to the Congress it's not just

these hearings but that's informing us
how you're actually using the money well

the local level and where it's
being wasted we don't have that so

many issues but certainly on these issues.

And and 2nd if you could talk a little
bit about your working around schools and

early childhood and
after school which you mentioned earlier

I'd be interested to hear that and
I only have a maximum of 3 minutes in 1900

slept because Senator Cardin
needs to get squashed.

I'll be brief and thank you breaking
down the silos has been something

that's taken a bit of time certainly have
been the state school superintendent sit

on the commission is an important
aspect of the discussion of how to

best serve the children as well
as the entire family and for

him to understand the data that's
coming out as we continue to research

will compel him and superintendents
across the state to understand the data

understand what the challenges are with
the family they're working with the kids

anyways what are the kids or do you
know that's where the kids are and so

making sure that the programs that are
maybe outside of the schools are effective

in the way that they're trying to serve
them within the schools that's why we.

Very thoughtfully went into the schools
to be a part of the project in generation

kids so really to start understanding
the dynamics between principals and

our services and so that we can continue
to to learn how to best serve the families

the 2nd part of the question
remind me again.

And there's a bit feedback
to this put the feedback.

Whatever mechanism you believe would be
most beneficial we reproduce our report

annually it comes out every October 1st
we've got a 5 and 10 year plan that's

outlined what we need to think we need to
do to address the findings in the data

it's folks that focuses on kids we have
policy recommendations that go to our

legislature they're very familiar with the
work they're the ones that will consider

legislative changes that may help support
the understanding of the data that we've

been able to produce so we're happy
to come and testify we're happy to

provide the port reports annually but
continue the dialogue on what I believe is

an important transformation that could
occur at least with the inner generational

poverty families and
thank you Mr Chairman I will forbear.

Thank you to the panel by the way
you very very interesting test and

I think Senator Bennett who has been for
this kind of advocacy for a long long

time makes the point also that Congress
has got a big oversight responsibility and

we have to more frequently hear
from people in the field and

I'm going to talk to Chairman Hatch about
that Sarah card with Senator Wyden and

the point I was going to make about
Senator Bennett also you know you and

I were in the House of Representatives
when we changed from the F.T.C.

to town of and one of the areas that
we really try to harp on is how we deal

with the basic structures of people
being able not only get a job not only

be able to keep a job but the move up the
economic ladder and Senator Bennett it's

been a real champion recognizing that we
have to have the educational component

in that make it sensitive understand
that work experience is important but

you also have the skills in order
to be able to keep a job and

to be able to advance that's
how you get out of poverty and

I think Senator Bennett for his leadership
that's why I wanted to listen to your

question the present where
it is to my questions what.

There is no question that we
needed to reform the D.C.

There's no question about that we needed
to be able to put an emphasis on work and

to give the flexibilities to the states
to innovate that was the whole reason for

what I've seen though is that there's
been more micromanaging at the national

level more so than accountability at
the national level I was listening to

my colleagues Senator Wyden asked these
questions of which are very valid

questions how do we achieve our
objectives by the major test

of poverty 10 of has not succeeded I
mean look at the numbers on the poverty

rates and you see that the one
of the major tools Tenet

has not been successful in that regard
therefore I think it is important for

us to look at accountability but don't
confuse that with taking away flexibility.

The problem is that many
states have diverted funds for

reasons other than dealing with getting
people jobs that they can grow and

get out of poverty so
it is this hearing is very important and

I think it's interesting to see
the people who were here at the end and

their commitment to saying look
we've got to do this better and

of course the truth of
matter is Congress has and

as really reduced this as affective
tool in real dollars We have not kept up

on the amount of dollars that are that
are necessary so Mr Pierpoint I appreciate

very much the innovation that you've
brought today Dr Shafer I want you noticed

Senator Brown is not only distributed your
book he's given us a test to make sure we

actually read it and that and we have but
we appreciate the commitment you made and

Dr Lopresti I very much appreciate the
work that you have done in this area but

I'm going to ask this Jackson a question
for 2 reasons 1st and foremost she hails

from Prince George's County Maryland
which has my attention Secondly she

has experienced firsthand
the challenges of the system and.

I know that you are a strong
proponent of America works and

you benefited from the program
in America works but

I would just like to get your
firsthand experiences as to the.

The challenges that are in the system that
we should be able to try to do something

about of where we're doesn't
make it difficult for

you to take care of your needs
with temporary assistance so

that you can in fact be productive
where can you see people

who have been inhibited where we think
we can make some commonsense changes.

To the system so
that more people can benefit and

get the type of employment that
they need for their families.

I think.

I think the program will benefit from.

Animation understand your cost if you're.

From my priest or my perspective
in going through the program.

I was very young started.

Well before I started work in livin in
the community it everything has changed so

much over the years that that's that's
like OK where do I start kind of quest in

the weird America Works help you why was
that such a valuable program to you that

was very valuable mainly because like
I probably said I 3 times already but

because it focused on me as a person
yes it was about getting the job but

it made me focused on making
sure that when I I mean

I was able to call a Jennifer tiller
when I didn't feel like coming in.

I may get my benefits and use it 30
hours OK I may get my 30 hours and

I'm not going to I don't feel like it but
I want it to work but

I was going through a depression and
gone through P.T.S.D.

and all these other things but
the P.T.S.D. came later

after the war I was still going through
all of those depressions and knows.

Anxieties way before I went to war.

From the stressors of everyday
life of just trying to

have a place to live of just
trying to keep a place to live.

In a decent area safe so it's this is.

America works ended up helping me by bit
of that help me to pretty much focus on.

My strengths sense and

that's what I take away from that is
the flexibility is important allowing

the states to come up with innovative
ways to deal with the individual because

everybody's different right advice to vary
by one by the way people want to work.

I don't know if you want to wear one for
the have a job than than than than than

the alternatives served by wants to work
people develop at different stages and

have different challenges and
have different needs.

They need help in reaching that
ladder that allows them to grow and

be able to take care of their family so

giving flexibility I thought was always
a good idea and I don't challenge that but

I thought Senator Stabenow has pointed out
accountability is right there's got to be

some accountability in the system that
if you don't take on the challenges we

give you the flexibility to give you the
tools which by the way I don't think we

are today but if we gave you the necessary
flexibility in the tools then we should

hold you accountable so
that you can't you know dodge the issues

of poverty in your state you can't dodge
the issues of people have multiple issues.

Having.

Challenges and everybody has challenges
you've got to be able to figure out how to

deal with those challenges and people who
are vulnerable those challenges can be

disability and you need to figure out
how you deal with that to get people

in a productive work environment so anyway
Mr Chairman I thought this hearing was

extremely helpful and I think Senator
Wyden for your patients in giving us

the opportunity to they answer QUESTION
Thank you Senator Senator Cardin and

Senator Cardin has extensive
experience on this not just here but

in the other body as well as on
the committee of of jurisdiction there.

Just because I didn't give
an opening statement 2 hours ago

is no reason to torture you now and
I will not give one and here's here's my

thought about this one of
the great chairs of this committee

was Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Senator Schumer enormous fan of

Senator Moynihan and
the center Moynihan chaired the committee

talked about the complexification
of government and

frequently said that in connection with
a whole host of government you know

programs and that certainly
seems to embody much of what we

have heard you know today and
I believe encouraged on a number of

fronts the bouquet tossing that has
taken place between Mr Shafer and

Mr Pierpont for example just one example
are very fine witnesses who come

from the field who tells what it's
really like enormously helpful and

I'm struck by the notion
that well there was a F.T.C.

in yesteryear and
now there's you know Hannah and

sort of people will kind of chew
on which program did what and

usually what the limitations
of both programs were and

it seems to me where you all were
taking asked was sort of towards a 3rd

path not A.F.D.C. not an F.

as it stands today but
this 3rd path and what I got out of it.

And you know again we're not going to keep
you here to breakfast time with the notion

that you all were interested in
more understandable standards

I think Mr Schafer and
several of you mentioned that and

some flexibility and when you were
talking about flexibility I got the sense

that flexibility meant the capacity to
respond to economic changes sort of

big picture economic changes that
take place in our country and

to individual needs and because of the
lateness of the hour I'm not gone get you

know make this a star chamber hearing and
put you through you know lots more but.

Ponder that if you will
as chairman have and

I'm both of noted this is a very hectic
day and I'm going to have to go to back to

the floor as well I want to thank all
of our witnesses in their outstanding

presentation and thanks to all
the senators as well we got a lot

out of this hearing also
note that any questions for

the record particularly for
staff need to be submitted by

no later than Thursday November 5th but
thank thank you all thank you all for

your service and with that
the Finance Committee is adjourned.