"911, What is your prejudice?": Racial bias and call-driven policing panel

GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYONE. 

I HOPE YOU GUYS ARE REALLY 

EXCITED ABOUT THIS PANEL. I 

CERTAINLY AM. I'M MICHAEL BARR. 

I AM THE DEAN HERE AT THE GERALD

R. FORD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC POLICY.

I AM THRILLED TO WELCOME YOU ALL

HERE FOR THIS SPECIAL EVENT.  

RACIAL BIAS AND CALL DRIVEN 

POLICING.

WE'VE SEEN AN OUTCRY OVER 

INCIDENTS IN WHICH POLICE HAVE 

BEEN CALLED TO INTERVENE IN 

SITUATIONS WHERE PEOPLE OF COLOR

ARE GOING ABOUT DAILY LIFE. 

SITTING IN A STARBUCKS, GOING TO

THE POOL, OR AS WHAT HAPPENS 

HERE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, JUST 

FALLING ASLEEP IN THE COMMON 

ROOM. THESE MOMENTS THAT RECEIVE

NATIONAL ATTENTION REPRESENT A 

TINY FRACTION OF THE MANY CALLS 

THAT 911 CENTERS RECEIVE EVERY 

DAY.  AND THESE CALLS OFTEN 

RESULT IN POLICE PRESENCE THAT 

COULD ESCALATE A SITUATION AND 

CAUSE ENORMOUS HARM. THESE 

ISSUES AFFECT MEMBERS OF OUR OWN

COMMUNITY AND THEY RAISE VERY 

BROAD ISSUES OF PUBLIC POLICY.  

AND THAT'S WHY I AM JUST 

THRILLED THAT WE HAVE OUR PANEL 

HERE TODAY. THE PANEL WAS 

CONCEIVED BY OUR OWN PhD STUDENT

JES

JESSICA GILLOOLY WHO WILL 

ADDRESS INSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURES

BEHIND CALL-DRIVEN POLICING AND 

DISCUSS ALTERNATIVES TO THE 

CURRENT SYSTEM. WE'RE THRILLED 

TO WELCOME SHERIFF JERRY CLAYTON

AND NYU LAW PREFER BARRY 

FREEDMAN TO THE FORD SCHOOL AS 

THEY JOIN JESSICA FOR THIS 

IMPORTANT CONVERSATION. OUR 

MODERATOR MY COLLEAGUE DAVID 

THATCHER WILL INTRODUCE THE 

PANELISTS IN MORE DETAIL AND 

WILL MODERATE WHAT WILL 

CERTAINLY BE AN INTERESTING AND 

PROVOCATIVE CONVERSATION. LET ME

JUST SAY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT 

FORMAT. WE'LL HAVE TIME TOWARDS 

THE END FOR QUESTIONS FROM THE 

AUDIENCE. PLEASE FILL OUT YOUR 

QUESTION CARDS AND OUR TEAM WILL

PICK THEM UP. FOR WATCH WATCHING

ONLINE TODAY, PLEASE TWEET YOUR 

QUESTIONS USING THE HASHTAG 

#POLICYTALKS.  FORD SCHOOL 

PROFESSOR LUKE SCHAFER AND TWO 

STUDENTS ANDREA WILL SHIFT 

THROUGH THE QUESTION CARDS AND 

POSE THEM TO THE PANEL. WELCOME 

THE FORD SCHOOL, WELCOME TO THE 

UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND LET 

ME NOW TURN THE PODIUM OVER TO 

DAVID. 

 DAVID THACHER: THANK YOU, 

DEAN BARR. AND THANK YOU 

EVERYBODY FOR COMING.  AND 

THANKS ESPECIALLY TO THE AWESOME

COMMUNICATION STAFF FOR PUTTING 

THIS, THE LOGISTICS OF THIS 

PANEL TOGETHER.

   SO, WE'VE BEEN STRUGGLING 

WITH THE PROBLEM MUCH RACE IN 

POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY 

THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY.  BUT THE

DEBATE ABOUT THAT PROBLEM AND 

THE DEMANDS FOR CHANGE HAVE BEEN

ESPECIALLY VISIBLE OVER THE LAST

FIVE YEARS OR SO. AND THOSE 

DEMANDS OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS

HAVE MOSTLY FOCUSED ON THE 

CHOICES THAT POLICE THEMSELVES 

MAKE ABOUT HOW AND WHEN TO USE 

THEIR AUTHORITY. THE CHOICES 

THAT POLICE OFFICERS MAKE ABOUT 

WHEN TO STOP AND FRISK PEOPLE ON

THE STREET, WHEN TO RAID THEIR 

HOUSES, WHEN TO PUT SOMEONE'S 

NAME IN A GANG DATABASE, WHEN TO

SHOOT THEM. OBVIOUSLY, THOSE ARE

INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, 

BUT THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY 

QUESTIONS THAT WE NEED TO BE 

ASKING IF WE WANT TO UNDERSTAND 

AND REDUCE THE PROBLEM OF RACIAL

DISPARITIES IN POLICING. POLICE 

POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY AND 

MOST PLACES IS REACTIVE. MOST 

POLICE DEPARTMENTS SPEND THE 

LION'S SHARE OF THEIR TIME 

RESPONDING TO 911 CALLS RATHER 

THAN MAKING THEIR OWN 

INDEPENDENT DECISIONS ABOUT WHEN

TO INTERVENE. AND WHAT WE'RE 

FINDING IS THAT PEOPLE CALL 911 

FOR ALL SORTS OF CRAZY REASONS. 

THE MOMENT THAT MADE THAT REALLY

VIVID TO A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME 

LAST YEAR IN THE INCIDENT DEAN 

BARR ALLUDED TO WHEN A STARBUCKS

MANAGER CALLED THE POLICE ON TWO

BLACK MEN WHO WERE WAITING IN A 

COFFEE SHOP FOR A BUSINESS 

PARTNER. THE POLICE WHO MADE 

THAT ARREST WEREN'T ENTIRELY 

BLAMELESS AND THE POLICE CHIEF 

ENDED UP APOLOGY FOR WHAT THEY 

DID, BUT THE PRIME MOVER BEHIND 

THOSE ARRESTS WAS A PRIVATE 

INDIVIDUAL.  IT WAS THE MANAGER 

OF THAT STARBUCKS WHO CALLED THE

POLICE IN THE FIRST PLACE AND 

THEN INSISTED THAT THOSE TWO MEN

WERE TRESPASSERS. THAT KIND OF 

THING HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. 

WE'VE SEEN A BLACK UNIVERSITY 

PROFESSOR ARRESTED WHEN HE WAS 

TRYING TO GET IN TO HIS OWN 

APARTMENT BECAUSE A NEIGHBOR 

THOUGHT HE LOOKED SUSPICIOUS AND

CALLED THE POLICE TO REPORT A 

POSSIBLE BURGLARY IN PROCESS. 

WE'VE SEEN TWO NATIVE AMERICAN 

TEENAGERS PULLED OFF A CAMPUS 

TOUR AT COLORADO STATE 

UNIVERSITY BECAUSE A WOMAN 

CALLED THE CAMPUS POLICE SAYING 

THEY MADE HER NERVOUS. AND WE'VE

SEEN AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN WHO

RUNS A YOUTH MENTORING PROGRAM 

FOR KIDS IN MURRIETA, GEORGIA 

WHO WAS QUESTIONED BY THE POLICE

BECAUSE A WOMAN THOUGHT IT WAS 

SUSPICIOUS TO SEE A BLACK MAN 

WITH TWO WHITE KIDS, SO SHE 

CALLED 911. THIS ISN'T A NEW 

PROBLEM, BUT SINCE THE STARBUCKS

ARREST WE FINALLY START TO 

NOTICE IT AND TO TALK ABOUT IT 

AND TO THINK ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO

BE DONE ABOUT IT. WHAT SHOULD WE

DO ABOUT THE DEMANDS ON POLICE 

TO CHECK UP ON SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE

OR PEOPLE WHO MAKE THEM NERVOUS 

WHEN IT TURNS OUT THAT THE 

REASON THE CALLER CONSIDERED 

THOSE PEOPLE SUSPICIOUS OR SCARY

WAS THAT THEY WERE 

AFRICAN-AMERICAN OR NATIVE 

AMERICAN OR WORE A HEAD SCARF.  

WE SET UP THE 911 SYSTEM TO MAKE

THE POLICE ACCESSIBLE TO THE 

PUBLIC, AND THAT'S A REALLY 

IMPORTANT GOAL.  BUT THEN WE 

FIND THAT SOME NON-TRIVIAL SHARE

OF 911 CALLS ARE UNFOUNDED AND 

POSSIBLY THE PRODUCT OF RACIAL 

BIAS AND RACIAL ANIMUS. WHAT 

SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THAT? THIS IS

THE QUESTION THAT OUR PANELISTS 

ARE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT 

TODAY.  THEY'RE EACH GOING TO 

BEGIN WITH ABOUT TEN MINUTES OR 

SO EACH OFFERING THEIR OWN 

THOUGHTS ON THAT ISSUE.  THEN I 

HAVE A QUESTION OR TWO TO POSE 

TO THEM. AND THEN FINALLY WE'LL 

OPEN IT UP TO QUESTIONS FROM THE

AUDIENCE AS DEAN BARR MENTIONED 

FILL OUT THE QUESTION CARDS THAT

WERE DISTRIBUTED AND HAND THEM 

TO A STAFF PERSON OR TWEET THEM 

AT HASHTAG #POLICYTALKS. I'M NOT

GOING TO DO A LOT OF 

INTRODUCTIONS. THE BIOS OF OUR 

PRESENTERS ARE AVAILABLE IN YOUR

PROGRAM.  SHERIFF CLAYTON FROM 

THE WASHTENAW COUNTY SHERIFF'S 

OFFICE IS TO MY LEFT. IN THE 

MIDDLE WE HAVE BARRY FRIEDMAN, 

PROFESSOR OF  LAW AT NEW YORK 

UNIVERSITY AND DIRECTOR OF THE 

POLICING PROJECT. FINALLY, 

JESSICA GILLOOLY OUR FANTASTIC 

DOCTORAL STOU STUDENT WHO WAS 

THE PERSON WHO CONCEIVED AND 

ORGANIZED THIS PANEL.  NOT 

SOMETHING THAT DOCTORAL STUDENTS

USUALLY PULL OFF.  SHE HERSELF 

HAS ALREADY BECOME ONE OF THE 

COUNTRY'S LEADING EXPERTS ON 

THIS TOPIC WITH THIS REMARKABLY,

YOU KNOW, INTERESTING WORK THAT 

SHE'S DONE, THIS TWO-YEAR LONG 

ETSDZ NOTHING RA FI SHE'S DONE 

OF A MAJOR CALL CENTER. HER WORK

HAS CHANGED THE WAY I THINK 

ABOUT THIS ISSUE. SHE'S GOING TO

START US OFF BY OFFERING HER 

ANALYSIS OF THE STARBUCKS 

PROBLEM AND WHAT WE SHOULD BE 

DOING ABOUT IT. JESSICA? 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: THANK YOU 

FOR THE INTRODUCTION, DAVID AND 

DEAN BARR. THANK YOU TO MY 

FELLOW PANELISTS FOR BEING HERE.

CALLING 911 IS THE PUBLIC'S MOST

COMMON FORM OF INTERACTION WITH 

LAW ENFORCEMENT. OVER 240 

MILLION CALLS ARE MADE TO 911 IN

THE U.S. EACH YEAR. THESE CALLS 

FREQUENTLY LEAD TO POLICE 

CITIZEN ENCOUNTERS. ACCORDING TO

THE BUREAU OF JUSTICE 

STRATEGIES, IN 2011 OF THE 

ESTIMATED 62.9 MILLION US 

RESIDENTS WHO HAD ONE OR MORE 

CONTACTS WITH THE POLICE, OVER 

HALF OF THOSE CONTACTS WERE 

BECAUSE A CALLER REQUESTED 

POLICE SERVICES. REQUESTS 

HOWEVER COME FROM CALLERS WHO 

HAVE THEIR OWN BIASES ABOUT 

PEOPLE AND PLACES. AS WE'VE SEEN

RECENTLY IN THE NEWS AND DAVID 

JUST MENTIONED THESE CALLS CAN 

LEAD TO EXCESSIVE, UNJUSTIFIED 

AND RACIALLY MOTIVATED 

POLICE-CITIZEN CONTACTS. DESPITE

THE ROLE OF THE 911 SYSTEM IN 

SHAPING MUCH OF POLICE WORK, 

IT'S OFTEN LEFT OUT OF 

CONVERSATIONS ABOUT POLICING. 

LATELY THOUGH AFTER INCIDENTS 

LIKE THE 911 CALL FROM A 

PHILADELPHIA STARBUCKS ABOUT TWO

BLACK MEN NOT MAKING A PURCHASE 

WHICH LED TO THEIR ARREST, IT 

HAS BECOME CLEAR THAT THE CALLER

CAN PLAY A ROLE IN THE PROBLEM. 

BUT THE ROLE THAT THE 911 

OPERATOR PLAYS IN HANDLING SUCH 

CALLS IS STILL LARGELY 

OVERLOOKED BY THE PUBLIC AND 

POLICY MAKERS ALIKE. THIS 

AFTERNOON I'M GOING TO TELL YOU 

ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE WORKING AS A

I THINK DISPATCH COULD PLAY IN 

REDUCING RACIALLY MOTIVATED 

POLICE ENCOUNTERS. IT MAY NOT BE

SURPRISING THAT DISPATCH IS 

OFTEN OVERLOOKED IN DISCUSSIONS 

ABOUT POLICING. 911 OPERATORS DO

NOT VISIBLY INTERACT WITH THE 

PUBLIC THE WAY THE POLICE DO. 

AND THE PLACES THEY WORK ARE 

OFTEN INTENTIONALLY UNMARKED.  I

REMEMBER THE DIFFICULTY I HAD 

LOCATING THE 911 CENTER WHEN I 

WAS APPLYING TO WORK AS A CALL 

TAKER. THERE ARE NO SIGNS ON THE

DOORS, NO BUSINESSES LISTED IN 

GOOGLE MAPS FOR THE ADDRESS I 

WAS GIVEN, NOR ANY MENTION OF 

THE LOCATION ON THE LOCAL POLICE

WEBSITES. ONLY ONCE I WALKED ON 

TO THE FLOOR OF METRO DISPATCH 

IN WASHTENAW COUNTY DID THE 

VOICES BEHIND 911 TAKE SHAPE. 

INSIDE METRO DISPATCH BETWEEN 

SOMETIMES 16-HOUR SHIFTS. 

BETWEEN 1-3 CALL TAKERS ARE 

TASKED WITH ANSWERING QUESTIONS,

GATHERING INFORMATION FROM 

CALLERS, CLASSIFYING CALLS AND 

ENTERING ALL THAT INFORMATION 

INTO THE COMPUTER SYSTEM. THE 

TWO DISPATCHERS FOR THE COUNTY 

THEN READ THAT INFORMATION ON 

THEIR OWN COMPUTERS, ASSIGN 

POLICE UNITS, AND RELAY THE 

INFORMATION OVER THE RAID YES TO

THE RESPONDING OFFICERS. METRO 

DISPATCH IS A CONSOLIDATED P SOP

OR PUBLIC SAFETY ANSWERING 

POINT. MEANING IT HANDLES 911 

AND NON-EMERGENCY CALLS FOR OVER

AND DISPATCHES FOR SIX SEPARATE 

POLICE AGENCIES EACH WITH THEIR 

OWN POLICIES AND PRACTICES.  SO

THIS MEANS THE CENTER RECEIVED 

ON AVERAGE 1300 CALLS PER DAY.  

SO, A 911 OPERATOR CAN BE 

ANSWERING A CALL EVERY TWO 

MINUTES DURING A TYPICAL 

AFTERNOON SHIFT. I REMEMBER 

FREQUENTLY HAVING THREE OR FOUR 

CALLS ON HOLD AND PICKING UP 

RINGING 911 LINES.  SO, THIS 

MEANS 911 CALL TAKERS HAVE 

SECONDS TO PERFORM A KEY JOB 

FUNCTION.  MAKE SENSE OF A 

CALLER'S REQUEST AND DETERMINE 

IF IT MERITS POLICE ATTENTION. 

BECAUSE DISPATCH ALLOCATES A 

FINITE PUBLIC RESOURCE, THE 

POLICE, IT REQUIRES EFFECTIVE 

GATEKEEPERS. GATE KEEPING IS 

DIFFICULTY IN AN ENVIRONMENT OF 

UNCERTAINTY AND CONFUSION AND 

CALL TAKERS UNDERSTANDABLY RELY 

ON THE MOTTO:  WHEN IN DOUBT 

SEND THEM OUT. "THEM" BEING THE 

POLICE. THIS PRACTICE OF 

INDISCRIMINATELY SENDING OUT THE

POLICE UNDERMINES THE CORE GATE 

KEEPING FUNCTION OF THE 911 

OPERATOR AND CAN BE ESPECIALLY 

TROUBLING WHEN CALLS APPEAR 

MOTIVATED BY PREJUDICE. MANY 

PEOPLE CONSIDER THE HARDEST 

CALLS FOR THE 911 OPERATORS AS 

THE ONES WHERE CALLERS ARE 

HYSTERICAL, NOT PROVIDING NEEDED

INFORMATION, AND THE CALLERS IN 

GRAVE PHYSICAL DANGER. HANDLING 

THESE CALLS IS NOT EASY.  I 

WOULD FEEL MY HEART RATE RISE, 

MY HANDS START SHAKING AND MY 

BREATH SHORTEN IN THESE MOMENTS.

UNDOUBTEDLY THEY'RE ONE OF THE 

REASONS WHY EMERGENCY 

DISPATCHING IS RANKED AMONG THE 

MOST STRESSFUL JOBS.  BUT ONE 

THING ABOUT THESE CALLS THAT IS 

NOT STRESSFUL IS THEY CLEARLY 

REQUIRE A SHIFT LAW ENFORCEMENT 

RESPONSE. THERE ARE NO 

AMBIGUITIES ABOUT WHETHER TO 

SEND THE POLICE WHEN A PERSON 

HAS BEEN SHOT, STABBED OR 

MUGGED. RACIALLY MOTIVATED CALLS

WITH LITTLE LEGITIMATE RATI

RATIONALE, ON THE OTHER HAND, 

ARE UNIQUELY STRESSFUL BECAUSE 

THEY RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT 

WHETHER POLICE ATTENTION IS 

WARRANTED. ABOUT A YEAR IN TO 

WORKING AS A 911 CALL TAKER I 

TOOK A CALL ON A LATE FALL 

AFTERNOON FROM A WOMAN IN A 

PARK. SHE WAS CALLING ON A BLACK

WOMAN WHO WAS STANDING NEAR A 

GRILL, QUOTE, MAYBE COOKING 

DRUGS. WHEN I ASKED HER WHY SHE 

THOUGHT THE WOMAN WAS COOKING 

DRUGS SHE RESPONDED, QUOTE, I 

SAW HER HERE BEFORE AND SHE 

LOOKS SUSPICIOUS. AND THIS TIME 

SHE LOOKS MORE SUSPICIOUS. THAT 

WAS HER ONLY JUSTIFICATION FOR 

HER CALL TO THE POLICE. I DIDN'T

PUSH BACK, EVEN THOUGH I VERY 

MUCH WANTED TO.  INSTEAD, I 

THANKED THE CALLER FOR THE 

INFORMATION, ENTERED THE CALL 

FOR DISPATCH, AND NERVOUSLY 

WAITED FOR THE DISPATCHER TO SEE

WHAT I HAD ENTERED. MOMENTS 

LATER I HEARD THE DISPATCHER 

YELL AT ME, GILLOOLY, ARE YOU F,

FOR EXAMPLE, KIDDING ME? THIS 

INCIDENT HIGHLIGHTS A COUPLE OF 

THINGS. TENSIONS ARISE INSIDE 

DISPATCH OVER LOW LEVEL CALLS 

THAT APPEAR RACIALLY MOTIVATED 

AND LACK OF CONVINCING 

RATIONALE. DISPATCHERS HAVE A 

LIMITED SUPPLY OF POLICE AND 

CALLS LIKE THESE TAKE RESOURCES 

AWAY FROM OTHER FUNCTIONS POLICE

COULD BE SERVING. MORE 

EXPERIENCED DISPATCHERS WHO ARE 

PRETTY GOOD AT DETECTING THESE 

KIND OF CALLS GET FRUSTRATED 

WHEN NEW HIRES FAIL TO DO THIS 

AND FAIL TO QUESTION THE CALLER.

PUSHBACK.  BUT NUMBER 911 

OPERATORS TAKE ON LIABILITY IF 

THEY REJECT CALLS THAT END UP 

BEING LEGITIMATE.  SO MANY CALL 

TAKERS PUT THE CALLS THROUGH TO 

DISPATCH. I ALMOST ALWAYS DID, 

FEARFUL IF NOT I WOULD FACE 

DISCIPLINARY ACTION.  BUT THAT 

MEANT I OFTEN FELT COMPLICIT IN 

MOBILIZING THE POLICE AGAINST 

PEOPLE OF COLOR. 911 AND THE 

POLICE ARE SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE 

PUBLIC SAFETY.  BUT IN CASES 

LIKE THESE, IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT 

THE PUBLIC IS ANY SAFER. 

INCIDENTS LIKE THESE ARE NOT 

INFREQUENT. IN FACT, IN 2015 IN 

WASHTENAW COUNTY ACROSS ALL THE 

AGENCIES, SUSPICIOUS PERSON 

CALLS WERE THE FOURTH MOST 

COMMON CALL.  FOLLOWING RECKLESS

DRIVERS, CAR CRASHES AND 

DISORDERLY BEHAVIOR. LESS THAN 

ONE PERCENT OF THEM LED TO BE A 

ARREST. THAT MEANS A LOT OF 

POLICE RESOURCES ARE GOING IN TO

SEEMINGLY UNFOUNDED CALLS AND 

LEADING TO WHAT SEEMS TO BE 

UNNECESSARY ENCOUNTERS WITH THE 

POLICE.

   SO WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT 

THESE CALLS FROM A DISPATCH 

PERSPECTIVE? FIRST, I THINK 911 

OPERATORS NEED CLEARER PROTOCOLS

ON HOW TO HANDLE AMBIGUOUS, 

POTENTIALLY RACIALLY MOTIVATED 

CALLS.  FOR EXAMPLE, BLACK MEN 

WALKING DOWN THE STREET TRYING 

TO OPEN CAR DOORS AND LOOK 

THROUGH HOUSE WINDOWS MAY MEET 

THE NECESSARY CRITERIA FOR A 

SUSPICIOUS PERSON CALL. WHEREAS 

THAT SAME MAN SITTING ON A CURB 

WOULD NOT. SECOND, CALL TAKERS 

NEED TO BE TRAINED IN PRESSING 

CALLERS TO ARTICULATE THEIR 

UNDERLYING SUSPICION IF THEY 

REPORT THAT SOMEONE, QUOTE, 

DOESN'T BELONG HERE. MANY 

EXPERIENCED CALL TAKERS ALREADY 

DO THIS WELL.  AND THE 

ORGANIZATION SHOULD DISTRIBUTE 

THEIR KNOWLEDGE TO LESS 

EXPERIENCED CALL TAKERS. IF 

CALLERS FAIL TO ARCTIC LATE 

THEIR SUSPICION ON A RECORDED 

LINE, I THINK OPERATORS SHOULD 

RECORD AND PASS ALONG THAT 

INFORMATION TO RESPONDING 

OFFICERS OR POSSIBLY REJECT THE 

CALL. THIRD, 911 PUBLIC 

AWARENESS CAMPAIGNS SHOULD ALIGN

EXPECTATIONS BETWEEN CALLING AND

CALL TAKERS AS TO THE TYPES OF 

QUESTIONS CALLERS WILL FACE WHEN

REPORTING SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. 

WITH SUCH TRAINING AND PUBLIC 

AWARENESS, I BELIEVE 911 

OPERATORS CAN BE EMPOWERED TO BE

MORE EFFECTIVE GATE KEEPERS FOR 

THE POLICE AND PUBLIC. 

 DAVID THACHER: THANK YOU. I 

THINK WE'LL MOVE TO SHERIFF 

CLAYTON NEXT. 

 JERRY CLAYTON: GOOD EVENING. 

THANKS FOR HAVING ME HERE. FOR 

FULL DISCLOSURE YOU GUESS YOU 

ALL PICKED IT UP. JESSICA USE TO

WORK FOR US, WASHTENAW COUNTY 

METRO DISPATCH.  SO, IT WAS A 

COUPLE THINGS THAT OCCURRED. THE

EVENTS THAT OCCURRED NATIONALLY,

CONVERSATIONS WITH HER REGARDING

AN OP-ED, AND JUST OUR NORMAL 

WAY OF HOW WE DO BUSINESS IN 

WASHTENAW COUNTY THAT LED US 

EARLY ON TO BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE

TO ADDRESS A LOT OF THE ISSUES 

THAT JESSICA TALKED ABOUT.  SO 

LET ME FRAME WASHTENAW COUNTY 

FOR YOU. SHERIFF'S OFFICE IS 

RESPONSIBLE FOR DELIVERING 

CONTRIBUTE POLICE SERVICES 

THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY. WE'RE 

ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE JAIL.  

BUT ONE OF OUR PRIMARY 

RESPONSIBILITIES ALSO IS METRO 

DISPATCH.  SO, FOR METRO 

DISPATCH AND JESSICA HIT IT SO I

WON'T BELABOR IT, WE DISPATCH 

FOR NOT ONLY THE SHERIFF'S 

OFFICE BUT ANN ARBOR POLICE 

DEPARTMENT, IPS LANNY POLICE 

DEPARTMENT, PITTSFIELD TOWNSHIP,

NORTHFIELD. AND WE COVER CLOSE 

TO 95 PERCENT OF THE EMERGENCY 

CALLS THAT COME IN TO WASHTENAW 

COUNTY ON AN ANNUAL BASIS.  SO, 

WE HAVE A TREMENDOUS IMPACT ON 

HOW DISPATCH SERVICES ARE 

DELIVERED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY.

AND JESSICA'S RIGHT TO THIS 

DEGREE. DISPATCH IS OFTEN THE 

FORGOTTEN PIECE OF THAT FIRST 

RESPONDER.  WE JUST DID AN 

EPISODE OF ONE OF OUR SERIES 

WHERE WE CALLED DISPATCH THE 

TRUE FIRST RESPONDERS. BECAUSE 

THEY'RE THE ONES THAT GET THAT 

INITIAL CALL.  QUITE FRANKLY, AS

WE THOUGHT ABOUT BIASED BASE 

POLICING AND HOW DO WE APPROACH 

IT FROM A SHERIFF'S OFFICE 

PERSPECTIVE, WE ADDRESS IT WITH 

DEPUTIES RIGHT AWAY. NOW WE HAVE

IDENTIFIED THE FACT THAT WE HAVE

TO ADDRESS IT WITH OUR 

DISPATCHERS.  SO, LET ME JUST 

GIVE YOU OUR ACTION STEP, OUR 

STRATEGY FOR AN EXAMPLE WE THINK

IS A MODEL FOR HOW A POLICE 

AGENCY WITH A DISPATCH 

ORGANIZATION CAN ADDRESS THE 

ISSUES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

LET ME START WITH THIS.  WE 

BELIEVE IN TAKING WHAT WE CALL 

AN ULTIMATE OUTCOMES APPROACH.  

SO, ANY TIME WE'RE THINKING 

ABOUT A SIGNIFICANT INITIATIVE 

IN THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE, WE 

FIRST THINK WHAT OUTCOME DO WE 

WANT TO ACHIEVE.  SO, IT IS A 

MISSION DRIVE STRATEGY DRIVE 

STRUCTURE. WHAT WE SAY IS IF WE 

DO EVERYTHING WE'RE SUPPOSED TO 

DO, IF WE PUT ALL THE RIGHT 

MECHANISMS IN PLACE, WHAT WILL 

THE OUTCOME LOOK LIKE? WHAT WILL

THE EXPERIENCE BE BOTH FOR, IN 

THIS CASE, OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS, 

OUR DISPATCHERS AND THE PEOPLE 

THAT ARE CALLING IN TO OUR 

CENTER? WE'VE ARCTIC LAPTED WHAT

WE BELIEVE SOME OF THOSE 

ULTIMATE OUTCOMES. I WON'T READ 

THEM ALL TO YOU BUT IT'S 

IMPORTANT BECAUSE THIS IS THE 

FOUNDATION FOR THE TRAINING 

WE'RE GOING PUT TOGETHER. IT 

MAKES US THINK ABOUT THE POLICY 

IMPLICATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH 

THAT. AND IT IMPACTS THE 

SUPERVISION TECHNIQUES AND 

STRATEGIES WE SHOULD PUT IN 

PLACE TO MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING 

THE THINGS WE NEED DO AND 

GETTING THE OUTCOMES WE WANT TO 

GET. I WANT TO GIVE YOU ONE 

ULTIMATE OUTCOME. THIS IS IN 

DRAFT FORM. METRO DISPATCH, IF 

WE DO EVERYTHING RIGHT F WE 

INCORPORATE THE TRAINING, POLICY

AND SUPERVISION, METRO DISPATCH 

WILL MANAGE SUSPECTED BIAS 

INFLUENCE CALLS IN A MANNER THAT

MINIMIZES THE IMPACT ON THE 

SUBJECT OF THE CALL AND IN 

EXTREME CASES THEY WILL NOT 

DISPATCH POLICE PERSONNEL TO 

CALLS FOR SERVICE THAT ARE 

CLEARLY THE RESULT OF A CALLER 

BIAS. AFTER WE DO EVERYTHING -- 

WE PUT EVERYTHING IN PLACE, WE 

THINK ONE OF THE OUTCOMES WILL 

BE TWO THINGS. THERE WILL BE 

SOME CALLS WHERE WE WON'T 

DISPATCH. AND I'LL TALK A LITTLE

BIT ABOUT WHAT THAT PROTOCOL 

WILL LOOK LIKE. THE MAJORITY OF 

THE CALLS, WE WILL TRIAGE AND DO

ALL THAT STUFF, WE WILL 

DISPATCH.  BUT THE PIECES AND 

OFTENTIMES, ESPECIALLY WITH 

SUSPICIOUS PERSONS, POLICE 

OFFICERS OFTENTIMES WILL ARRIVE 

TO THE SCENE AND THEY DON'T HAVE

TO ENGAGE THE PERSON. YOU JUST 

WATCH AND OBSERVE. IF THEIR 

BEHAVIORS WARRANT YOU ENGAGING 

THEM, THEN YOU ENGAGE. IF YOU 

HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT IT, YOU 

ENGAGE, BUT THERE'S A WAY TO 

ENGAGE. THERE'S A WAY TO ENGAGE 

IN A PROCEDURAL JUST WAY THAT 

EVEN THE PERSON THAT GETS 

CONTACTED MAY BE IRRITATED BY 

THE FACT THEY HAD CONTACTED WITH

THE POLICE, BUT THE MANNER IN 

WHICH YOU ENGAGED AND THE 

EXPLANATION YOU PROVIDE AND ALL 

THOSE THINGS HELP TO MITIGATE 

THAT.  IT'S STILL, AND I KNOW 

FOR -- IT'S STILL AN IMPACT, 

BECAUSE AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN 

MAN I'VE BEEN STOPPED BY AND 

CONTACTED BY THE POLICE AND 

THEY'VE BEEN POLITE AS ANYTHING.

I'M STILL IRRITATED BY THE FACT 

THAT YOU CALLED ON ME TO BEGIN 

WITH.  SO, WE HAVE TO STRIKE 

THAT BALANCE.  SO, THAT'S JUST 

ONE OF THE OUTCOMES.  SO, FROM 

THAT ULTIMATE OUTCOME THEN WE 

IDENTIFY WHAT BEHAVIORS OR 

DECISIONS DO OUR INTERNAL 

STAKEHOLDERS, DEPUTIES, 

DISPATCHERS IN THIS INSTANCE, 

WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO DO TO 

BEHAVE IN A WAY TO HELP CONTRACT

TO THOSE OUTCOMES? THE LAST 

PIECE IS, ALL RIGHT, WHAT 

KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS DO THEY 

NEED TO BEHAVE THE WAY WE WANT? 

HERE IS THE KEY FOLKS. WE 

UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT OF 

TRAINING.  SO, EVERYTHING THAT 

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT STARTS WITH 

MAKING SURE OUR STAFF HAVE THE 

KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS TO BEHAVE 

THE WAY WE WARRANT THEM TO 

BEHAVE TO GET TO THE OUTCOMES WE

WANT THEM TO GET TO. I WANT TO 

FRAME IT. I GOT A FEW MORE 

MINUTES.  IT'S NOT JUST A 

POLICY. HERE ON OUR ACTION 

STEPS.  SO, IDENTIFY THE JOB 

CLASSES THAT ARE AFFECTED BY THE

ISSUES. ARE DISPATCHERS AND OUR 

CALL TAKERS, OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS

BECAUSE THEY'RE RESPONDING THEN 

OUR OPERATIONAL PROTOCOL IN 

SITUATIONS WHERE A DISPATCHER 

FEELS THAT IT IS A BIAS 

INFLUENCED CALL AND THEY'RE NOT 

GOING TO DISPATCH SOMEONE, 

THEY'RE GOING TO REROUTE THAT TO

A PATROL SUPERVISOR. THE PATROL 

SUPERVISOR'S OBLIGATION TO LOOK 

AT THE INFORMATION THAT'S BEEN 

ENTERED INTO THE CALL SHEET AND 

THEN DECIDE WHETHER THEY CALL 

BACK AND SAY DISPATCH RESOURCE, 

OR IF THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE 

CONTACT WITH THAT CALLER.  SO 

WE HAVE TO NOW TRAIN THE 

SUPERVISORS TO DO THAT AS WELL. 

SO, IDENTIFY THE JOB CLASSES.  

AND THEN PLAN AND IMPLEMENT OUR 

POLICY STRATEGY.  WE ALREADY 

HAVE A BIASED FREE POLICY.  WE 

HAVE TO LOOK AT OUR POLICIES AND

SAY DO OUR POLICIES COVER THIS 

NEW INITIATIVE? OUR 

RESPONSIBILITIES IN 

ADMINISTRATION IS TO PROVIDE AND

DIRECT.  DO WE HAVE TO WRITE A 

NEW POLICY, MODIFY THE EXISTING 

POLICY? AND IT IS THE SAME THING

WITH TRAINING.  SO, WHEN OUR 

DISPATCHERS -- HERE'S WHAT WE 

KNOW.  WE DO BIAS RETRAINING. 

WE'VE DONE IT FOR OUR DEPUTY 

SHERIFFS NOW WE HAVE TO DO FOR 

DISPATCHERS SO THEY KNOW THE 

ROLE THEY PLAY.  WE ALSO DO 

IMPLICIT AND EXPLICIT BIAS. 

WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A STUDY 

BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW IF THE 

TRAINING THAT WE HAVE FOR OUR 

DEPUTY SHERIFFS RIGHT NOW ARE 

ACTUALLY CHANGING BEHAVIOR.  SO

I'M NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN 

CHECKING THE BOX.  I'M CHANGING 

BEHAVIOR FOR THE RIGHT KIND OF 

OUTCOME.  SO, WE'RE RIGHT IN THE

MIDDLE OF THAT STUDY. WE'LL TAKE

THAT TRAINING TO OUR DISPATCHER 

AS WELL. OUR DEPUTY SHERIFFS 

ALREADY GET WHAT WE CALL 

PROCEDURAL JUSTICE TRAINING 

WHICH IS REALLY A FRAMEWORK FOR 

HOW YOU INTERACT WITH PEOPLE 

FROM A DIGNITY AND EQUITY 

STANDPOINT. THEN THE LAST ONE 

THE TRAINING THAT WE ARE 

DEVELOPING RIGHT NOW WE JUST HAD

A MEETING TODAY.  THEY'RE NOT 

GOING TO WANT ME TO SAY THAT.  

BUT SOME OF OUR DISPATCH 

LEADERSHIP IS IN THE BACK OF THE

ROOM AND WE HAD A DISCUSSION 

ABOUT WHAT SHOULD, WHAT WE'LL 

CALL IT IS MANAGING BIAS 

INFLUENCED CALLS FOR SERVICE. 

WHAT SHOULD THAT LOOK LIKE? IF 

WE WORK FROM OUR ULTIMATE 

OUTCOMES THROUGH THE BEHAVIORS 

WE WARRANT AND KNOWLEDGE AND 

SKILLS WE CAN CREATE THE 

TRAINING THAT WE FEEL WILL HAVE 

THE IMPACT ON BEHAVIOR THAT WILL

CHANGE THE OUTCOMES WE'RE 

LOOKING FOR. THEN I'LL WRAP IT 

UP WITH THL THIS. NOW WE GOT 

HAVE STRATEGY FOR SUPERVISORS IN

TERMS HOW THEY MANAGE IT. THEN 

WE HAVE TO HAVE INTERNAL 

COMMUNICATION. FOR US IT'S 

IMPORTANT THAT OUR STAFF 

UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE DOING WHAT 

WE'RE DOING. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO 

SAY I'M THE SHERIFF THAT'S WHY I

AM GIVING YOU THIS POLICY.  WE 

WANT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION AND 

SAY HERE IS WHY WE'RE DOING. 

HERE'S WHAT OUR ROLE AND MISSION

IS AS AN ORGANIZATION.  AND THIS

IS HOW THIS CHANGE SUPPORTS US 

ACCOMPLISHING OUR MISSION AND 

CONNECTION WITH THE 

COMMUNICATION -- COMMUNITY.  WE 

CAN DO STUFF THROUGH SOME OF OUR

TECHNOLOGY. THE LAST PIECE IS 

NOW HOW DO WE ENGAGE THE 

COMMUNITY? JESSICA TALKED ABOUT 

IT. BY THE WAY, WHETHER WE'RE 

DOING BIAS BASED POLICING, 

BIASED INFLUENCE CALLS, THOSE 

USUALLY START FROM A COMMUNITY 

CALL.  WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE 

THE FACT THAT ALTHOUGH POLICE 

OFTEN ARE THE BRUNT OF SOME OF 

THIS, BECAUSE WE'RE RESPONSIBLE 

FOR A LOT OF IT, WE'RE WE'VE 

OFTEN BEEN USED AS A TOOL TO 

FURTHER SOCIETAL BIAS.  SO, WE 

CAN DO ALL THAT WE WANT 

INTERNALLY.  UNLESS WE HAVE A 

REALLY GOOD ROBUST COMMUNITY 

CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT BIAS 

CALLS ARE, AND THE FACT THAT 

SOMEONE WHO IS BLACK WALKING IN 

A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD MIGHT BE 

UNUSUAL, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE IT 

SUSPICIOUS. AND VICE VERSA. 

WE'VE CONFLATED THOSE TWO 

THINGS. SOMETHING MIGHT BE 

UNUSUAL AND WE CALL IT 

SUSPICIOUS AND ACT ON IT.  WE 

NEED TO HAVE THAT LEVEL OF 

CONVERSATION. AND I'LL END WITH 

THAT.  BUT WE HAVE A STRATEGY 

THAT WE BELIEVE WILL ACHIEVE A 

LOT OF THE OUTCOMES THAT JESSICA

TALKED ABOUT IN HER 

PRESENTATION. 

 DAVID THACHER: THANKS.  

PROFESSOR FRIEDMAN? 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: GOOD 

AFTERNOON.  IT'S GOOD TO BE 

HERE. I AM A PROFESSOR AT NYU 

LAW SCHOOL BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY 

I AM THE DIRECTOR OF THE 

POLICING PROJECT AT NYU. SO I 

HOPE WHEN YOU ALL GO HOME 

TONIGHT YOU GO TO WWW.POLICING 

PROJECT.ORG AND CHECK US OUT AND

GET ON THE MAILING LIST. YOU 

MIGHT THINK THAT'S WHY I'M HERE 

BUT IT'S NOT. SO I AM GOING TO 

TELL YOU WHY I AM HERE.  IT'S 

BECAUSE THE WORLD IS A VERY 

SMALL PLACE. FIRST, I WANT TO 

THANK DEAN BARR WHO I HAVE KNOWN

FOR 100 MILLION YEARS AND DAVID 

THATCHER WHO I MET SEVERAL YEARS

AGO AT THE UNIVERSITY OF 

CHICAGO.  BUT THE TRUE ANSWER TO

WHY I AM HERE IS BECAUSE ONE OF 

MY RESEARCH ASSISTANTS WENT TO A

WEDDING ONE DAY.  AT THAT 

WEDDING SHE MET JESSICA 

GILLOOLY. AND THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD

NOTHING BETTER TO TALK ABOUT.  

SO, THEY ENDED UP TALKING ABOUT 

RESEARCH THAT MY RESEARCH 

ASSISTANT WAS DOING FOR ME WHICH

LED JESSICA TO SEND ME AB OP-ED 

SHE HAD PUBLISHED IN THE 

"WASHINGTON POST" WHICH HAS LED 

TO US BEING COAUTHORS.  I'M 

HOPING I'M KNOCKING ON WHAT I 

ASSUME IS WOOD HERE THAT JESSICA

WILL BE WORKING AT THE POLICE 

PROJECT WITH US AS A POST-DOC 

COME THIS FALL. I HOPE THAT TOO.

FINALLY, JUST TO PROVE WHAT A 

SMALL WORLD IT IS, I MET SHERIFF

CLAYTON IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 

WHEN WE WERE THERE ON A JUNKET 

FOR POLICING OFFICIALS. AND HE 

IS A MEMBER OF OUR ADVISORY 

BOARD.  SO, IT IS A VERY SMALL 

WORLD AND I'M GLAD TO BE HERE 

WITH EVERYBODY. I WANT TO WIDEN 

THE LENS HERE WHEN DAVID WROTE 

US ALL ABOUT WHAT WE WOULD BE 

SAYING.  YOU KNOW, HE SAID 

JESSICA'S GOING TO TALK ABOUT 

RACIALLY BIASED 911 CALLS AND 

SHERIFF CLAYTON IS GOING TO TALK

ABOUT HOW THE SHERIFF'S 

DEPARTMENT HANDLES RACIALLY 

BIASED 911 CALLS. AND BARRY IS 

GOING TO DO SOMETHING. HE IS 

GOING WIDEN THE LENS AND IT MAY 

BE RELEVANT AND I HOPE IT IS BUT

MAYBE NOT. DAVID I'M GOING TO 

WIDEN THE LENS BUT I PROMISE AT 

THE END I'M GOING TO COME BACK 

TO DISPATCH WHETHER IT SEEMS TO 

RELATE OR NOT. I THINK WHAT 

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE TODAY 

IS THE TIP OF A VERY LARGE 

ICEBERG.  SO, THERE'S LOTS OF 

RACIAL BIAS IN POLICING BEYOND 

RACIALLY BIASED PHONE CALLS.  IN

FACT, THE ENTIRE CRIMINAL 

JUSTICE SYSTEM, WHATEVER METRICS

YOU WANT TO LOOK AT, WHETHER 

IT'S POLICE STOPS, WHETHER IT'S 

ARRESTS, WHETHER IT'S CHARGING, 

WHETHER IT'S PRE-TRIAL RELEASE 

DECISIONS, WHETHER IT'S 

INCARC

INCARCERATION, IT IS A HEAVILY 

RACED THING IN OUR SOCIETY. AND 

THOUGH THERE ARE MANY REASONS 

FOR THAT, THERE'S OVERT RACISM, 

THERE'S SUBCONSCIOUS BIAS, 

THERE'S SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS AND

POVERTY ISSUES THAT WE DON'T 

TALK ABOUT NEARLY ENOUGH BECAUSE

THERE'S A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP 

BETWEEN FOLK'S LEVEL OF POVERTY 

OR HOW THEY'RE DOING IN THE 

WORLD AND RACE IN THIS COUNTRY. 

ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS POLICING.

THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN IN THE 

COUNTRY RIGHT NOW ABOUT MASS 

INCARCERATION.  BUT AS I WOULD 

LIKE TO TELL FOLKS, VERY OFTEN 

YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT MASS 

INCARCERATION WITHOUT POLICING. 

MOST OF THE FOLKS WHO END UP IN 

THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM END 

UP THERE THROUGH THE DOOR OPENED

BY THE POLICE. THOUGH JESSICA 

POINTS OUT PROPERLY THAT IT IS 

THE DISPATCHERS WHO MAY BE AT 

THE BEGINNING OF THAT.  SO, WE 

HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS WHOLE 

ICEBERG I THINK AND GET A HANDLE

ON IT. NOW POLICE COME IN TO 

CONTACT WITH PEOPLE LOTS OF 

DIFFERENT WAYS.  THEY COME IN TO

CONTACT THROUGH PATROL, EVEN 

THROUGH COMMUNITY POLICING, 

THROUGH PROACTIVE POLICING WHICH

OFTEN INVOLVES HOT SPOTS BUT 

DISPATCHERS SURELY ONE MUCH THE 

MOST IMPORTANT WAYS THAT FOLKS 

COME IN TO CONTACT WITH THE 

POLICE.  SO, WE NEED TO THINK 

ABOUT THAT. WHAT I WANT TO THINK

ABOUT FOR JUST A MOMENT ISN'T 

NECESSARILY HOW THEY COME IN TO 

CONTACT WITH THE POLICE OR HOW 

POLICE COME IN TO CONTACT WITH 

INDIVIDUALS BUT WHO IT IS THAT'S

COMING IN TO CONTACT WITHIN 

INDIVIDUALS WHEN THE POLICE SHOW

UP.  SO, ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE

BEEN DOING AT THE POLICING 

PROJECT IS WE'VE BEEN ASKING 

POLICING AGENCIES TO SEND US 

THEIR BASIC CURRICULUM FOR 

PEOPLE GOING TO THE POLICE 

ACADEMY. EVERY STATE'S GOT SOME 

SET OF STANDARDS AND WE'VE 

COLLECTED THOSE AND THEN WE'VE 

ASKED THE TOP TEN POLICING 

AGENCIES IN THE COUNTRY AND MOST

OF THEM ARE GIVING US THEIR 

INFORMATION.  AND WE'VE BEEN 

CREATING PIE CHARTS TO ASK HOW 

IS IT THAT OFFICERS ARE TRAINED?

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PIE CHART 

WHAT YOU FIND OUT IS THAT WE'VE 

DIVIDED IT INTO I THINK FIVE 

CATEGORIES.  ONE OF THE BIGGEST 

HUNKS OF THE PIE CHART IS USE OF

FORCE. HOPEFULLY THE USE OF 

FORCE TRAINING ISN'T JUST USING 

FORCE BUT KNOWING WHEN NOT TO 

USE FORCE AND DE-ESCALATE.  BUT 

THAT IS A BIG PART. A SECOND BIG

PART OF THE PIE CHART IS LAW 

ENFORCEMENT. WHAT ARE THE SFLAUZ

WHAT ARE THE THINGS PEOPLE CAN 

BE CITED FOR? WHAT ARE THE 

PENALTIES? THE LAW ENFORCEMENT 

PART OF THE JOB.  A THIRD BIG 

PART IS WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT IT

TO BE WHICH IS JUST OPERATIONAL.

HOW DO YOU FILL OUT REPORTS, 

INTERVIEW WITNESSES, THE 

PROTOCOLS FOR POLICING AGENCIES.

 THEN THERE'S TWO SMALL SLICES 

IN THE PIE CHART. AND WE 

CONSTRUCTED THIS ORGANIZATION. 

ONE IS ON EMERGENCY MEDICAL 

SERVICES.  THAT'S A VERY TINY 

SLIVER OF THE PIE CHART. THEN 

PART OF THE PIE CHART THAT 

VARIES FROM AGENCY TO AGENCY OR 

TRAINING ACADEMY TO TRAINING 

ACADEMY BUT IT'S TYPICALLY LESS 

THAN TEN PERCENT AND INVOLVES 

THINGS THAT WE REFER TO AS 

SOCIAL SERVICES OR MEDIATION. 

WHEN YOU ENCOUNTER FOLKS ON THE 

STREET IN THE COURSE OF YOUR 

RESPONSIBILITIES, HAVE YOU BEEN 

TRAINED IN HOW TO RESOLVE 

DISPUTES?  HAVE YOU BEEN TRAINED

IN SOCIAL SERVICES THAT PEOPLE 

MIGHT NEED TO RECEIVE? IT'S 

IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF SOME WORK 

THAT JESSICA AND I ARE DOING 

TOGETHER WHICH IS WE'RE TRYING 

TO GO BACK TO A SET OF OLD DATA 

SETS THEN WE'RE GOING TRY TO 

COLLECT SOME INFORMATION FROM 

COMPUTER ASSISTED DISPATCH. AND 

WHEREVER WE CAN GET INFORMATION.

ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT POLICE DO 

ALL DAY LONG. WHAT ARE THE 

INCIDENTS IN WHICH THEY FIND 

THEMSELVES INVOLVED? WHEN YOU 

START TO LOOK AT THAT 

INFORMATION, IT PAINTS A VERY, 

VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE OF 

POLICING THAN WHAT YOU MIGHT 

THINK OF IF, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU 

WATCH TELEVISION AND SEE WHAT IT

IS THAT THE POLICE DO. BECAUSE A

VERY SMALL PART OF THEIR TIME IS

SPENT ACTIVELY CRIME-FIGHTING. 

NOW TO BE FAIR BECAUSE I WAS 

ASKED THIS QUESTION AT A 

WORKSHOP AT THE LAW SCHOOL 

EARLIER TODAY, IT MAY WELL BE 

TRUE THAT THE VERY PRESENCE OF 

POLICE ON THE STREETS IS A 

DETERRENT TO CRIME, AND I 

CERTAINLY DON'T DENY THAT AND 

THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO 

THINK ABOUT, BUT WHEN IT COMES 

TO WHAT COPS HAVE TO DEAL WITH 

WHAT THEY ANSWER DISPATCH CALLS,

IT'S ANIMAL QUESTIONS.  THERE'S 

A CAT IN A TREE. THERE'S A DOG 

LOOSE ON THE STREET. LOTS OF 

NOISE COMPLAINTS. PEOPLE CALLING

ABOUT SOMEBODY HAVING A PARTY 

NEXT DOOR. THERE'S FOLKS HANGING

OUT ON THE CORNER OR ON THE 

STOOP DRINKING. THERE'S A 

TRAFFIC ACCIDENT. THERE'S AN 

ISSUE WITH SOMEBODY HAVING A 

SUBSTANCE ABUSE PROBLEM. MAYBE 

AN OVERDOSE. VERY OFTEN THE 

CALLS INVOLVE MENTAL ILLNESS. 

AND THE POINT OF DOMESTIC 

ARGUMENTS, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ONE

OF THE LARGEST CATEGORIES OF 

CALLS AND, FRANKLY, ONE OF THE 

MOST DIFFICULT. AND THE POINT I 

WANT TO RAISE IN AS I DESCRIBE 

THIS IS YOU NEED TO ASK YOURSELF

IN ALL THESE SITUATIONS IF THE 

PRIMARY TRAINING OF THE POLICE 

IN FORCE AND IN LAW IS THE RIGHT

RESPONSE FOR THE THING THEY'RE 

BEING CALLED AND ASKED TO DO. 

BECAUSE IT'S NO DISCREDIT TO THE

POLICE, BUT SHOULD NOT BE A 

SURPRISE THAT WHEN A SITUATION 

ARISES THE PEOPLE THAT YOU BRING

TO THAT SITUATION TO HELP ARE 

TRAINED PRIMARILY IN FORCE AND 

LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT YOU ARE 

GOING TO GET A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF

FORCE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT. 

THOUGH WHAT YOU MIGHT VERY WELL 

NEED IS MEDIATION OR SOCIAL 

SERVICES. AND THAT IS NOT THE 

WAY WE ARE NECESSARILY 

CONSTRUCTED AS A SYSTEM TO DEAL 

WITH THE SOCIAL PROBLEM -- 

SOMETIMES VERY, VERY SERIOUS 

SOCIAL PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO BE 

DEALT WITH. AS I WANT TO SAY 

JUST BECAUSE POLICE ARE THE 

FIRST RESPONDERS, WHICH THEY 

ARE, DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE THE 

RIGHT RESPONDERS. AND THE 

QUESTION I WANT PEOPLE TO ASK, 

THIS IS GOING TO SOUND LIKE ONE 

QUESTION BUT IS THREE. I'M GOING

TO GIVE THEM TO YOU SO YOU CAN 

THINK ABOUT THEM AND THEN I'LL 

BRING US BACK TO DISPATCH. THE 

FIRST QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE 

POLICE DOING HERE. WHICH IS TO 

SAY, ARE THE POLICE THE RIGHT 

PEOPLE TO BE RESPONDING TO DEAL 

WITH THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION? 

AND THE SECOND QUESTION IS:  

WHAT ARE THE POLICE DOING HERE 

WHEN THEY RESPOND WHAT IS IT 

THAT THEY ACTUALLY DO AND WHAT 

ARE THEY TRAIN DTO DO. FINALLY, 

WHAT ARE THE POLICE DOING HERE? 

IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS 

PLACE THAT'S PROBLEMATIC FROM A 

SOCIAL PERSPECTIVE THAT WE NEED 

TO ADDRESS IN SOME WAY OTHER 

THAN WITH THE POLICE? WHEN YOU 

LOOK AT DATA, IT IS INCREDIBLY 

INTERESTING AND DEEPLY TROUBLING

THE NUMBER OF TIMES, FOR 

EXAMPLE, THAT THE POLICE WILL BE

CALLED TO THE SAME ADDRESS 

BECAUSE OF A SUBSTANCE ABUSE 

PROBLEM OR BECAUSE OF A DOMESTIC

ARGUMENT PROBLEM. AND WHEN THAT 

HAPPENS WHAT YOU CAN KNOW IS 

THAT WE AS SOCIETY ARE FAILING. 

WE'RE FAILING TO ADDRESS THE 

UNDERLYING PROBLEM THAT IS 

CAUSING THE CALL AND THE 

DISPATCH IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND

THESE TWO, I JUST WANT TO RETURN

TO THE POINT I MADE ABOUT THE 

ICEBERG, HAVE A HUGE RACIALIZED 

AFFECT. VERY OFTEN THE CALLS 

COME FROM MORE UNDERPRIVILEGED 

MORE CHALLENGED NEIGHBOR 

NEIGHBORHOODS. THOSE 

NEIGHBORHOODS AND FOLKS THAT 

LIVE IN THEM LACK THE RESOURCES 

THAT FOLKS IN BETTER OFF 

NEIGHBORHOODS HAVE TO DEAL WITH 

THESE RANGE OF PROBLEMS. SO WE 

GET THE OUTCOMES IN THE CRIMINAL

JUSTICE SYSTEM BECAUSE WE HAVE 

NOT THOUGHT DEEPLY ENOUGH ABOUT 

WHO WE SEND AND WHAT SKILLS THEY

HAVE. TO BE CLEAR, YOU KNOW, AN 

EXERCISE THAT JESSICA AND I 

ENTERED INTO IT, PARTICULARLY 

BECAUSE WE'RE THE LEAST 

COMPETENT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET 

TO DO IT, IS WE TOOK THE PANOPLY

OF CALLS AND BROKE THEM INTO 

THREE CATEGORIES. I'M GOING 

ULTIMATELY CALL ON SOME OF MY 

LAW ENFORCEMENT FRIENDS TO GO 

THROUGH THE SAME EXERCISE. WHICH

IS TO SAY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT 

THESE INCIDENTS IS THIS THE KIND

OF SITUATION WHERE FORCE AND LAW

ARE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED? ARE THEY 

SITUATIONS WHERE FORCE AND LAW 

ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT THE RIGHT 

RESPONSE? ARE SITUATIONS WHERE 

YOU MIGHT WANT FORCE AVAILABLE. 

TAKE A DOMESTIC ARGUMENT WHICH 

COULD TURN INTO A VERY SERIOUS 

SITUATION, BUT YOU MIGHT WANT IT

IN THE BACKGROUND WHICH IS NOT 

HOW WE CONSTRUCT THINGS. WE 

DON'T OFTEN ENOUGH HAVE 

CO-RESPONSE WHERE YOU MIGHT NEED

FORCE THERE BUT THAT SHOULD NOT 

BE THE PRIMARY ACTOR.  WE NEED 

TO THINK ABOUT WAYS TO RESPOND 

IN SOCIETY -- YOU KNOW THE 

SHERIFF WAS TALKING ABOUT 

ULTIMATE OUT YOMS AND I LIKE 

THAT EXPRESSION. I OFTEN TALK 

ABOUT OPTIMUM OUTCOMES. IF WE 

TAKE THE INCIDENT WHAT IS THE 

BEST WE CAN HOPE FOR AS SOCIETY 

IN THAT SITUATION? WHICH BRINGS 

ME BACK TO DISPATCH. AS 

JESSICA'S POINTED OUT AND AS THE

SHERIFF'S POINTED OUT, WHAT 

MATTERS AT SOME LEVEL IS TRIAGE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCCESSFUL WE 

CAN BE AT TRIAGE AT THAT STAGE. 

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO TALK 

ABOUT IT.  I'M STRUCK BY THE 

FACT THAT JESSICA SAYS WE HAVE 

SECONDS TO MAKE A DECISION.  

THAT'S NOT VERY LONG.  BUT THERE

ARE AREAS IN THE WORLD WHEN E WE

DO TRIAGE, WE DO IT BETTER THAN 

I THINK WE DO IT IN THE DISPATCH

AREA. TRIAGE ASSUMES THAT 

THEY'RE GOING TO BE OTHER 

RESPONSES OR A PANOPLY OF 

RESPONSES TO THE PROBLEMS.  BUT 

I THINK THAT WE NEED TO START AT

DISPATCH WITH THAT KIND OF 

TRIAGED RESPONSE AND WORK OUT TO

FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN GET 

OPTIMAL OUTCOMES IN ALL THESE 

DIFFERENT SITUATIONS. 

 DAVID THACHER: I'M GOING TO 

ASK ONE QUESTION THEN WE'LL TURN

IT OVER TO THE AUDIENCE. IF YOU 

HAVE ONE, WRITE IT OUT ON YOUR 

INDEX CARD, HAND IT TO SOMEBODY 

WALKING BY OR TWEET IT TO 

HASHTAG #POLICYTALKS. THE 

QUESTION I WANT TO POSE ABOUT IS

THE EARLY RESPONSES WE'VE SEEN 

IN THE POLICY WORLD OVER THE 

LAST YEAR TO THIS PROBLEM WE'VE 

BEEN TALKING ABOUT. AS THIS 

ISSUE'S GOTTEN MORE ATTENTION 

ACROSS THE COUNTRY OVER THE PAST

SEVERAL MONTHS WE'VE STARTED TO 

SEE POLICY MAKERS START TO TAKE 

ACTION.  MAYBE NOT A LOT OF 

CONCRETE CHANGES BUT ATTEMPTS TO

FRAME THE ISSUE WITH SOME STRONG

STATEMENTS ABOUT WHAT SHOULD 

HAPPEN NEXT.  SO, FOR EXAMPLE, A

FEW MONTHS AGO PARTLY INSPIRED 

BY OP-EDS LIKE THE ONE JESSICA 

WROTE THE ALEXANDRIA DEMOCRATIC 

COMMITTEE PASSED A RESOLUTION 

CALLED ON 911 CENTERS TO DO MORE

TO ENCOURAGE CALL TAKERS TO PUSH

BACK ON CALLS, TO ASK CALL 

TAKERS, DISPATCHERS, TO TELL 

OFFICERS WHEN THEY HAVE REASON 

TO DOUBT WHAT THE CALLER TOLD 

THEM WHEN THEY DISPATCH OVER THE

RADIO, THEN FINALLY TO DO MORE 

OF THE PUBLIC OUTREACH WORK THAT

ALL THE PANELISTS HAVE MENTIONED

TO DISCOURAGE IMPROPER CALLS. I 

WANT TO BE CON KEET HERE AND 

JUST READ A COUPLE OF PASSAGES 

FROM THAT RESOLUTION. BE IT 

RESOLVED THAT THE ALEXANDRIA 

DEMOCRATIC COMMITTEE URGES 911 

CENTERS TO CONTINUE TO TRAIN 

DISPATCHERS TO ATTEMPT TO 

DETERMINE IF THERE'S A 

REASONABLE CONCERN FOR A 

CALLER'S SAFETY OR THE SAFETY OF

OTHERS OR IF THE PERSON IS 

CALLING ONLY BECAUSE OF EXPLICIT

OR IMPLICIT BIAS TOWARDS 

MINORITY GROUP MEMBERS. IT GOES 

ON TO URGE... 911 DISPATCHERS TO

CONTINUE TO CONVEY TO OFFICERS 

INFORMATION ABOUT A CALL THAT 

SUGGESTS THEY HAVE REASON TO 

DOUBT THE FACTS REPORTED BY THE 

CALLER. IT URGES POLICE 

DEPARTMENTS TO PUBLICIZE THAT, 

QUOTE, FACTORS SUCH AS RACE, 

ETHNICITY AND/OR RELIGIOUS 

AFFILIATION ARE NOT SUSPICIOUS 

AND THEY WILL FULLY ENFORCE 

STATUTES REGARDING FALSE REPORTS 

TO LAW ENFORCEMENT. AND IT URGES

THEM TO MOUNT PUBLIC RELATION 

EFFORTS IN TRADITIONAL AND 

SOCIAL MEDIA TO DISCOURAGE 

IMPROPER AND ILLEGAL USING OF 

THE 911 SYSTEM. WHAT DO EACH OF 

YOU THINK OF THAT MESSAGE? WOULD

YOU HAVE VOTED FOR THAT 

RESOLUTION IF YOU WERE ON THAT 

COMMITTEE? 

 JERRY CLAYTON: NOT AS 

WRITTEN. SO I READ THE 

RESOLUTION. I THINK THE INTENT 

IS GOOD. I THINK WHERE THEY WANT

TO GO IS OKAY.  BUT, YOU KNOW, 

THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS. I'LL

GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. I THINK THE

SECOND POINT WAS, TELL THE 

OFFICERS THE REASONS WHY THEY 

DOUBT THE FACTS.  THEY'RE NOT IN

A BOGS TO DOUBT THE FACTS AS 

RELAYED TO THEM.  YOU KNOW WHAT 

WE'RE SAYING IS SO WE'RE GOING 

SET A REASONABLE SUSPICION 

THRESHOLD.  SO, OUR DISPATCHERS 

SHOULD ASK A SERIES OF QUESTIONS

SIMILAR TO WHAT AN OFFICER IS 

GOING TO UTILIZE WHEN THEY GET 

THERE TO DETERMINE WHETHER 

THERE'S REASONABLE SUSPICION, 

PROBABLE CAUSE.  WHAT WE DON'T 

WANT THEM TO DO IS HAVE SOMEONE 

ARTICULATE A SET OF FACTS AND 

FOR THEM TO TRY TO DETERMINE 

WHETHER THOSE FACTS ARE 

INFLUENCED BY A BIAS OR NOT.  

WHAT COULD BE OBJECTIVE FACTS TO

TRY TO SEE IF THEY'RE SUBJECTIVE

FACTS THEN NOT SEND A RESOURCE 

FOR THAT REASON. SO I THINK THE 

INTENT IS GOOD.  I JUST THINK 

THERE ARE ISSUES -- THEN THE 

PUSH BACK.  SO, I'LL TALK ABOUT 

THE PUSHBACK. YOU BETTER BE 

REALLY, REALLY COMFORTABLE WITH 

ALIGNMENT WITH THE COMMUNITY'S 

EXPECTATIONS ABOUT WHAT DISPATCH

WILL AND WILL NOT DO -- SO 

TOMORROW I COULD HAVE A POLICY 

AND SAY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO 

DISPATCH THESE TYPE OF CALLS.  

THAT'S NOT THE EXPECTATION THE 

COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW.  SO, THAT'S

GOING TO CAUSE MAYBE GREATER 

ISSUE THAN WHAT WE'RE FACING 

NOW. OR DIFFERENT KIND OF ISSUE.

SO AS WE WORK THROUGH WHAT 

WE'RE WORKING THROUGH WE KNOW 

THERE'S A PARALLEL PATH TO WORK 

WITH THE COMMUNITY TO MAKE SURE 

WE'RE IN AGREEMENT AT LEAST 

FROM -- NOT EVERYBODY BUT ENOUGH

IN AGREEMENT THAT THIS IS THE 

PATH WE SHOULD FOLLOW. 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I AGREE 

WITH THE SHERIFF FOR THE MOST 

PART. I THINK THAT SEEMS TO BE A

GOOD FIRST STEP TOWARD 

RECOGNIZING DISPATCH IS PLAYING 

A ROLE AND CALLERS AS PLAYING A 

ROLE IN THESE SORTS OF PROBLEM 

SITUATIONS. I THINK THAT IT DOES

REQUIRE A LOT OF BUY-IN FROM 

DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS AND EVEN 

THE WRITER OF THIS RESOLUTION 

SAID THAT HE FACED A LOT OF 

PUSHBACK FROM THE LOCAL POLICE 

BEFORE IT WAS PUSHED.  THEY 

WANTED POLICE TO JUST RESPOND 

AND SORT THINGS OUT ONCE THEY 

GOT THERE. SO I THINK THAT THE 

IDEA OF HAVING THESE THRESHOLDS 

AND CRITERIA AROUND SUSPICIOUS 

PERSON CALLS IS SOMETHING I'D BE

INTERESTED TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT 

THAT SET OF CRITERIA LOOKS LIKE.

AND THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT. 

BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS A FINE 

LINE BETWEEN CHALLENGER THE 

CALLER AND DISBELIEVING WHAT 

THE CALLER IS SAYING. I THINK 

TRYING TO TRAIN THEM TO ASK THE 

RIGHT QUESTION TO FIGURE OUT THE

UNDERLYING REASON OF THE CALL IS

REALLY IMPORTANT BUT NOT JUST UT

DOUBTING WHAT THE PERSON'S 

REASON IS. 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: SO I THINK 

TWO POINTS. ONE IT RELATES TO 

THE POINT OF THE POLICING 

PROJECT.  SO, I'LL JUST SAY A 

WORD ABOUT IT. WHICH IS WHAT 

WE'RE ABOUT IS TRYING TO BRING 

DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY TO 

POLICING. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT 

DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY, WHAT 

WE MEAN IS WHAT WE CALL 

FRONT-END ACCOUNTABILITY.  SO, 

IN MOST OF GOVERNMENT WHEN YOU 

THINK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY WHAT 

YOU THINK ABOUT IS CALLING UP 

REPRESENTATIVES AND TELLING THEM

WHAT YOU WANT AND GETTING LAWS 

THAT REFLECT THE WILL OF THE 

PEOPLE. IN SOME POLICING FOR 

SOME REASON ALL ACCOUNTABILITY 

SEEMS TO BE ABOUT HOLDING PEOPLE

RESPONSIBLE FOR THINGS THAT GO 

WRONG THE POLICE PROJECT IS 

ABOUT TRYING TO BRING THAT FRONT

END RESPONSIVE TO POLICING. I 

COMMEND THE RESOLUTION AND THE 

SENTIMENT OF A POLICY OF A 

COMMUNITY TO SAY WE SEE THE 

PROBLEM AND HERE'S HOW WE OUGHT 

TO THINK ABOUT ADDRESSING OUT 

THE FRONT END. I SHARE THE 

SKEPTICISM HERE THAT, I MEAN, 

UNCONSCIOUS RACIAL BIAS IS A 

COMPLICATED THING. WHERE EVERY 

YOU GO EVERYBODY WANTS TO KNOW 

WHERE CAN WE GET UNCONSCIOUS 

RACIAL BIAS TRAINING WERE IT BE 

SO SIMPLE. ALL OF A SUDDEN IT 

WOULD BE A COLOR BLIND NEUTRAL 

WORLD. I WISH IT WAS THAT SIM.  

IT'S NOT. SO I THINK 

IMPLEMENTING THIS IS 

COMPLICATED. AN AREA WHERE I 

HAVE QUESTIONS AND THE FOLKS ON 

THE LEFT AND RIGHT WOULD KNOW 

WAY BETTER THAN I DO IS THE 

FIRST TIME I STARTED TO TALK IN 

PUBLIC ABOUT THIS IDEA OF FRONT 

END ACCOUNTABILITY ABOUT HAVING 

RULES AND POLICIES AND STATUTES 

IN PLACE FORMULATED ABOUT 

POLICING, SOME OF MOW COLLEAGUES

SAID POLICING IS SHOT THROUGH 

WITH DISCRETION. YOU CAN'T HAVE 

RULES. I WOULD SORT OF LOOK 

AROUND AND SAY, AREN'T WE IN LAW

SCHOOL? ISN'T THAT WHAT WE DO? 

WE WRITE RULES TO GUIDE 

DISCRETION.  THAT'S THE WHOLE 

POINT OF LAW. I HAVE NEVER 

BELIEVED FOR A MOMENT THAT 

POLICING IS SO SPECIAL THAT YOU 

CAN'T HAVE RULES.  RIGHT? IF 

ANYTHING BECAUSE POLICE OFFICERS

HAVE TO RESPOND SO QUICKLY TO 

SITUATIONS THAT'S WHEN YOU NEED 

PROTOCOLS. 

 JERRY CLAYTON: SO THAT'S 

SHOCKING TO ME. AND THAT'S PART 

OF THE FALLACY I THINK OUT IN 

MAYBE IN OUR PROFESSIONAL AND 

OUTSIDE OF THE PROFESSION. THEY 

THINK A POLICE OFFICER CAN DO 

WHATEVER THEY WANT WHATEVER THEY

WANT. NO THEY HAVE DISCRETION. 

LOW DISCRETION IS I AM 

RESPONDING TO A CALL FOR 

SERVICE. HIGH DISCRETION IS 

WHETHER I DECIDE TO STOP ONE OF 

YOU TONIGHT AFTER WE ALL LEAVE 

FOR A TRAFFIC STOP. I HAVE THAT 

DISCRETION.  BUT THOSE ARE ALL 

FRAMED.  WE FENCE THE YARD. THE 

LAW HELPS FRAME THE USE OF 

DISCRETION. THE POLICY AND 

PROCEDURE HELPS FRAME THE 

DISCRETION. AND WHAT YOU SHOULD 

GET IS SUPERVISOR FEEDBACK IN 

SOME OBSERVATION THAT HELPS 

FRAME THAT DISCRETION.  THAT'S 

HOW YOU MOVE THE PROFESSION. I 

WILL SAY THAT. I THINK ONE OF 

THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE IN OUR 

PROFESSION AND WE CAN BE OUR 

WORST ENEMY IS JUST THAT 

THINKING. NOT ONLY DO WE NOT 

HAVE RULES BUT HOW DARE WE REACH

OUT TO THE COMMUNITY TO GET 

THEIR FEEDBACK FOR HOW WE SHOULD

DO A POLICY.  WE WROTE AN 

IMMIGRATION POLICY, WE BROUGHT 

IN OUR IMMIGRATION ADVOCATES. 

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS? 

HOW DOES THIS WORK? LET'S GET 

FEEDBACK? WHEN WE ROLL IT OUT 

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE FEEDBACK 

ANYWAY RIGHT? LET'S GET IT ON 

THE FRONT END. AND THEY HAVE A 

VIEW AND LENS WE DON'T HAVE.  

SO, A LONG WAY OF SAYING, YES, I

AGREE. 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: SO THE 

QUESTION BECOMES CAN THAT HAPPEN

FOR DISPATCH? IS IT POSSIBLE TO 

FORMULATE THE RULES TO TRIAGE 

AND TO LIMIT THE DISCRETION OF 

THE DISPATCH FOLKS OR THE CALL 

TAKERS.  OR MAYBE IT SOUNDS LIKE

ENABLED DISCRETION AT SOME LEVEL

INSTEAD OF JUST REPORTING 

SOMETHING. I HAVE NO EXPERTISE 

TO KNOW WHETHER IT'S ABLE TO 

FORMULATE THOSE RULES. LET ME 

MAN SPRAIN FOR ONE MINUTE MORE. 

IT SEEMS TO ME WHAT YOU WOULD 

WANT TO DO IN ANY SITUATION AND 

WHAT THE LAW TRIES TO DO IS 

THINK WHAT ARE ALL THE CASES AND

CAN WE SIT BACK AND LOOK AT THE 

CASES AND THINK ABOUT SOME 

GENERALIZED RULES FOR DEALING 

WITH THOSE CASES. 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK 

THERE ARE SOME RULES THAT GUIDE 

SOME OF THE DISCRETION.  FOR 

EXAMPLE, MOST AGENCIES IN THE 

COUNTY DON'T RESPOND IF YOU LOCK

YOURSELF OUT OF YOUR CAR 

ANYMORE.  THAT'S BECOME A POLICY

THAT WE HAVE IN OUR HANDBOOK AT 

DISPATCH THAT YOU TELL THE 

PERSON, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING 

THE POLICE PROVIDE.  WE CAN 

TRANSFER YOU TO A TOW COMPANY 

AND THEY CAN DO IT FOR YOU. 

THERE ARE TYPES OF CALLS WHERE 

THERE ARE OTHER RESPONSES 

POSSIBLE.  BUT HAVING THAT RULE 

IS ACTUALLY REALLY NICE 

SOMETIMES. BAUPS IT PROTECTS YOU

FROM MAKING A DECISION ON THE 

PHONE THAT CAN LATER -- YOU CAN 

LATER GET IN TROUBLE FOR IF YOU 

DIDN'T DISPATCH POLICE. SO I 

THINK HAVING PROTOCOLS AROUND 

SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE CALLS WOULD BE

BENE

BENEFICIAL. 

 DAVID THACHER: I'M ONLY 

SUPPOSED TO ASK ONE QUESTION BUT

I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON THIS. 

THIS ISSUE IS WHAT I'VE LEARNED 

MOST OF ALL FROM JESSICA'S 

FIELDWORK. YOU HAVE TAUGHT ME 

THE EXTENT TO WHICH THERE IS 

DISCRETION EXISTING WITHIN CALL 

CENTERS. THAT YOUR CO-WORKERS IN

THE CALL CENTER ARE MAKING THE 

DECISIONS ABOUT THE SAME KIND OF

SITUATION IN DIFFERENT WAYS. 

WHAT ARE THE AREAS IN WHICH YOU 

SEE THAT DISCRETION PLAYING OUT 

WITHIN DISPATCH? WHAT ARE SHE 

SITUATIONS WHERE THERE AREN'T 

RULES ALREADY. YOU JUST GAVE US 

AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE THERE WAS A 

CLEAR RULE. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE

OUTSTANDING AREAS WHERE THE 

RULES ARE NOT DEVELOPED AND IT 

MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO HAVE MORE 

GUIDANCE? 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK THE

CALLS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE 

ARE THE ONES THAT WOULD BE THE 

MOST BENEFICIAL TO HAVE SOME 

SORT OF RULES AROUND THOSE. SOME

PEOPLE MIGHT DECIDE NOT TO PUT 

THE CALL IN. THE DISPATCHER WHO 

YELLED AT ME THAT DAY PROBABLY 

WOULD HAVE NOT ENTERED THAT CALL

FOR SERVICE AND JUST MOVED ON 

WITH THEIR DAY.  BUT AS A NEW 

CALL TAKER WHO HASN'T BEEN THERE

THAT LONG, THERE'S A RISK OF 

BEING LIABLE IF SOMETHING WENT 

WRONG AND YOU DIDN'T PUT THE 

CALL IN. SO I THINK THERE ARE 

DIFFERENT DECISIONS PEOPLE MAKE 

INSIDE DISPATCH.  I DON'T THINK 

THE COMPANY POLICY IS TO REJECT 

CALLS.  BUT SOMETIMES IT GETS 

BUSY AND SOMEONE DOESN'T WANT TO

ENTER A CALL BECAUSE THEY THINK 

IT'S RACIALLY MOTIVATED.  BUT 

HAVING RULES FOR THAT WOULD BE 

HELPFUL. 

 DAVID THACHER: WHY DON'T WE 

TURN TO THE AUDIENCE QUESTIONS, 

IF YOU GUYS ARE READY HERE.  

LUKE ARE YOU GOING TO GET US 

STARTED HERE? ARE THE STUDENTS 

GOING TO JUMP RIGHT IN? OKAY.

HERE IS A QUESTION FROM 

TWITTER. AM HOW CAN WE EMPOWER 

STAFFED AND UNDERPAID, LACK OF 

JOB SECURITY, MOTIVATES 

DISPATCHER BEHAVIOR. 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: COULD YOU 

REPEAT THE END OF THE QUESTION. 

THAT WAS A STATEMENT. LACK

OF JOB SECURITY MOTIVATES 

DISPATCHER BEHAVIOR. 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK 

THERE'S SOME JOB SECURITY FOR 

DISPATCHERS. A LOT OF 

DISPATCHERS ARE FULL-TIME. 

THEY'RE UNIONIZED STAFF.  YOU 

NEED TO HAVE GROSS NEGLIGENCE 

REALLY TO LOSE SOME OF THAT JOB 

SECURITY.  SO, THERE IS SOME 

LEVEL OF SECURITY.  BUT THERE'S 

STILL WAYS IN WHICH YOU CAN BE 

DISCIPLINED BY THE AGENCY FOR 

MAKING, YOU KNOW, REJECTING 

CALLS OR DOING OTHER THINGS THE 

AGENCY DOESN'T APPROVE OF. 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: A LACK OF JOB

SECURITY STRIKES ME AS AN 

EXCELLENT MOTIVATOR.  SO, IT'S 

THE OPPOSITE PROBLEM YOU ARE 

FACING WITH A UNIONIZED LABOR 

FORCE.  BUT ANYBODY THAT'S 

EMPLOYED AND THAT FACES 

INCENTIVES. AROUND POLICES THE 

INSENT ACTIVE QUESTIONS ARE 

REALLY DIFFICULT. THE ISSUE 

DOESN'T STRIKE ME AS MUCH ABOUT 

INCENTIVES AS IT ZOE ABOUT RULES

AND PROTOCOLS.

I'M ANDREA. I'M A SECOND 

YEAR MPP AND VERY INTERESTED IN 

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM. I HAD 

THIS QUESTION AND I APOLOGIZE IF

IT COMES OFF LEADING IN ANYWAY. 

BUT I WAS CURIOUS, TO WHAT 

EXCELLENT DOES THE NUMBER 

RESPONSE KIND OF EXPOSE HOW THE 

CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM ENTERS 

SOCIAL PROBLEMS AND THAT ARE 

FIRST RESPONSE TO MENTAL HEALTH 

AND DIFFERENT OTHER ISSUES ARE 

RESPONDED BY POLICE FIRST? I 

THINK IT IS REALLY AN EXAMPLE 

HOW WE'VE INVESTED RESOURCES.  

SO, THE POLICE RESPONSE TO 

MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, BECAUSE 

THEY ARE THE 24/7 365 OPERATION.

WE'VE HAD THE DISCUSSION SHOULD 

IT BE SOMEONE ELSE? PROBABLY 

SHOULD BE SOMEONE ELSE. ARE WE 

AT THE LOCAL LEVEL WHERE THE 

COUNTY OR CITY IS WILLING TO 

INVEST THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES 

NECESSARY TO HAVE A DIFFERENT 

GROUP RESPOND TO SOME OF THOSE 

CALLS? THERE ARE FINEITE 

RESOURCES AT THE COUNTY AND CITY

LEVEL. PUBLIC SAFETY TAKES UP 

MOST BUDGETS 50 PERCENT OF 

MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT BUDGET. IF 

I HAVE THAT LITTLE BIT OF ROO 

RESOURCES NOW WE WILL HAVE 

SOMEONE ELSE RESPOND WHERE ARE 

YOU MORE LIKELY TO TAKE THAT 

MONEY FROM? PROBABLY FROM 

POLICE. WHAT'S THE CHIEF GOING 

TO SAY ABOUT THAT OR THE SHERIFF

GOING TO SAY ABOUT THAT?  SO, 

IT'S REALLY AN EXERCISE IN 

PRIORITIES.  IT IS AN EXERCISE 

IN WHO IS THE RIGHT GROUP TO 

RESPOND BUT REALLY AN EXERCISE 

IN BUDGET. WHERE ARE YOU GOING 

TO PLACE THOSE DOLLARS? 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK IN 

THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE THERE HAS 

BEEN CO-RESPONSE PROJECTS AROUND

MENTAL HEALTH.  SO, COMMUNITY 

MENTAL HEALTH GOES OUT WITH 

DEPOSITS.  SO, THAT -- DEPUTIES.

THAT MIGHT BE AN EXAMPLE OF 

HAVING FORCE IN THE BACKGROUND 

LIKE BARRY WAS TALKING ABOUT 

EARLIER. 

 JERRY CLAYTON: YEAH BUT, 

AGAIN, YOU KNOW -- YOUR QUESTION

DISPATCHING THOSE CALLS WHAT 

DOES IT SAY FROM A SOCIETAL 

STANDPOINT. I THINK THAT DOES 

SAY IT ALL. OUR DISINVESTMENT IN

PROGRAMS, ESPECIALLY FRONT-END 

PROGRAMS, PROACTIVE PROGRAMS, TO

HELP PEOPLE ADDRESS MENTAL 

HEALTH DISORDER, SUBSTANCE USE 

DISORDER, ALL THE BEHAVIORAL 

DISORDER ISSUES HAS RESULTED IN 

A DEFAULT TO POLICE RESPONDING 

TO THOSE THINGS.  SO, WE AS A 

SOCIETY ARE CRIMINALIZING 

BEHAVIORS AND SITUATIONS THAT 

SHOULDN'T BE CRIMINALIZED. AND 

WE SEE THAT MANIFEST IT SELF.  

IT'S THE WORST INVESTMENT OF 

DOLLARS. IT COST FAR MORE TO 

HAVE SOMEONE IN YOUR JAIL IF YOU

ARE A TAXPAYER IN WASHTENAW 

COUNTY AT 100 PLUS A DAY THAN IT

TAKES TO MANAGE THAT PERSON 

OUTSIDE OF THE JAIL AND GIVE 

THEM SOME TREATMENT AT FAR LESS 

THAN THAT. 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: ONE OF THE 

FACULTY MEMBERS AND A FORMER 

STUDENT SAYS WITH PRIDE ASKED A 

REALLY HARD QUESTION. AND I 

THINK IT'S ONE WE KIND OF NEED 

TO DE-BUG.  SO, HER QUESTION 

WAS:  THIS IS GREAT, THIS SOUNDS

UTOPIAN, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK 

WE'RE GOING ACTUALLY MOVE TO 

THIS PLACE IN THE WORLD? SORT OF

THE PUBLIC CHOICE QUESTION, IF 

YOU LIVE IN THE WORLD OF PUBLIC 

CHOICE THEORY. WHAT I DON'T 

FULLY KNOW AND UNDERSTAND IS THE

EXTEND TO WHICH WE RESPOND TO 

THINGS THE WAY WE DO BECAUSE OF 

PATH DEPENDENCE. WE'VE JUST DONE

IT THAT WAY FOR A LONG TIME SO 

LET'S KEEP DOING IT. OR WHETHER 

THERE'S AN ATTITUDE IN THE BODY 

POLITIC. AND I THINK THERE IS 

HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT 

HAS OF A KIND OF RETRIB AACTIVE 

RESPONSE TO ALMOST EVERYTHING.  

WE SPENT A LOT OF ENERGY DURING 

THE REAGAN PRESIDENCY AND THERE 

AFTER DE-INSTITUTIONALIZING 

FOLKS FROM MENTAL INSTITUTIONS. 

AND THOSE INSTITUTIONS WERE NOT 

GOOD PLACES. THERE WERE REAL 

PROBLEMS WITH THEM. BUT THEN 

THEY ENDED UP ON THE STREET. 

WHATEVER ENDS UP ON THE STREET 

FALLS INTO THE HANDS OF THE 

POLICE TO DEAL WITH.  BUT IT 

DOES REQUIRE US IN OUR RHETORIC,

WHICH IS NOT THE RHETORIC I SEE 

IN MY TWITTER FEED EVERY DAY, 

SAYING WE UNDERSTAND THESE TO BE

SOCIAL PROBLEMS OR PUBLIC HEALTH

PROBLEMS. BECAUSE MANY OF THE 

THINGS THAT FALL INTO THE LAP OF

THE POLICE AND THAT WE THINK OF 

POLICING PROBLEMS IN THIS 

COUNTRY ARE PUBLIC HEALTH 

PROBLEMS BUT THEN YOU NEED A 

MENTALITY IN THE PUBLIC TO TREAT

THEM AND FUND THEM AS THAT. AND 

FOR SOME REASON IT'S YOU KNOW 

WHAT IS EASY TO GET FUNDED IS 

COPS, RELATIVE TO A LOT OF OTHER

THINGS. AND THAT'S A MISTAKE. IN

FAIRNESS, AND WE ALL HAD THIS 

CONVERSATION AT LUNCH AT GREAT 

LENGTH, WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER 

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS 

SHIFTING AROUND MONEY TO DEAL 

WITH THINGS MORE EFFICIENTLY OR 

WHETHER IT WOULD BE WAY MORE 

EXPENSIVE TO DO THE THINGS WE'RE

DOING. AS SHERIFF CLAYTON SAYS, 

THERE ARE LIMITED RESOURCES.  

SO, THERE'S ALWAYS A STRUGGLE 

OVER WHO GETS THAT MONEY. 

DO YOU FEEL IT IS HELPFUL TO 

ACKNOWLEDGE OR DENOUNCE MANY 

WELL INTENDED POLICIES THAT 

CONTRIBUTE TO RACIAL BIAS IN 

POLICING THROUGH POLICIES LIKE 

THE OBAMA CRIME BILL AS WELL AS 

THE BROKE WINDOWS POLICY? 

 JERRY CLAYTON: YES. 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: BROKEN 

WINDOWS WAS A DISASTER. AND SO 

I'LL ADD SOME DATA JUST BECAUSE 

WE'RE AT POLICY SCHOOL. THERE 

HAVE BEEN TOO FEW STUDIES DONE 

BUT A NUMBER OF INTERESTING 

STUDIES ABOUT POLICE RESPONSE TO

KRIM OE NINIC PLACES. THEY KNOW 

THAT IF YOU PUT POLICING 

RESOURCES IN THOSE PLACES YOU 

CAN BRING DOWN CRIME. NOT AS 

MUCH AS YOU MIGHT THINK FROM 

READING POPULAR PRESS, BUT YOU 

CAN.  BUT WHAT SOME OF THOSE 

STUDIES HAVE SHOWN IS THAT YOU 

CAN DO A BETTER JOB BY 

ADDRESSING SITUATIONAL ISSUES.  

YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE STATE OF 

THE TOPOGRAPHY? IS THERE 

ADEQUATE LIGHTING? AN I BANDONED

HOME THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT 

WITH. IF YOU GO BACK AND READ 

THE BROKEN WINDOWS PIECE, WHICH 

I RECOMMEND BY THE WAY IT IS A 

TERRIFIC PIECE OF SOMETHING, 

POLICY JOURNALISM, WELL WRITTEN 

AND PERSUASIVE AND YOU FEEL LIKE

SOCIETY'S ILLS HAVE BEEN SOLVED.

IT'S REALLY UNCLEAR FROM THAT 

PIECE WHAT THEY EXPECTED TO 

HAPPEN IN THIS MODEL OF BROKEN 

WINDOWS POLICING. GEORGE KELING 

WHO HAS WORKED FOR YEARS IN THIS

SPACE HIMSELF AS KIND OF SPOKEN 

ABOUT IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS.  BUT

I THINK NOW RUES THE FACT THAT 

THE SOLUTION TO BROKEN WINDOWS 

POLICING WAS MISDEMEANOR ARRESTS

RATHER THAN FIXING BROKEN 

WINDOWS.  SO, THERE'S YOUR 

DENUNCIATION. 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK IN 

GENERAL POLICIES I REMEMBER A 

PROFESSOR AT A DIFFERENT POLICY 

SCHOOL, SAID ALL BAD POLICY WERE

GOOD IDEAS YESTERDAY. EVEN THIS 

CONVERSATION ABOUT CRAFTING 

POLICIES AROUND SUSPICIOUS 

PEOPLE CALL, IT'S STILL ALWAYS 

CONCERNING TO IMPLEMENT A 

POLICY. YOU DON'T KNOW THE 

OUTCOME. SO I THINK IT'S 

IMPORTANT TO HAVE EVALUATIONS OF

WHAT HAPPENS AS PLACES START 

IMPLEMENTING THESE RULES AND 

CRITERIA AROUND CALLS. I THINK 

THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE IS DO IS --

DOING THAT.  

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: ERIC SAID THE

CHIEF CAUSE OF PROBLEMS IS 

SOLUTIONS.  SO, SORT OF THE SAME

IDEA. 

DO POLICE NEED DIFFERENT 

TRAINING OR DOES THE PUBLIC NEED

TO CHANGE EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT 

POLICE DO OR BOTH? SHOULD WE BE 

TRYING TO GET THE PUBLIC TO 

CONTACT THE RIGHT RESPONDER 

INSTEAD OF THE POLICE OR SHOULD 

WE BE TURNING THE POLICE INTO 

THE RIGHT RESPONDERS? 

 JERRY CLAYTON: I ALWAYS PAUSE

BECAUSE I GOT AN OPINION BUT I 

WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M NOT 

DOMINATING. I THINK THAT IS A 

GREAT QUESTION. I'LL SAY BOTH. 

AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS 

RE-IMAGINING POLICE AND THINKING

ABOUT POLICE IN A NEW WAY, I 

THINK THE FOCUS HAS TO BE 

INTERNAL TO THE POLICE 

PROFESSION, EXTERM TO THE 

COMMUNITY. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 

CULTURAL CHANGE. THERE ARE BASIC

ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE HAVE IN 

SOCIETY ABOUT THE ROLE THAT 

POLICE PLAY IN KEEPING US SAFE. 

BARRY MENTIONED THIS EARLIER 

TODAY.  I'VE EVEN BEEN TINKERING

WITH JUST THE DEFINITION OF 

PUBLIC SAFETY. IS PUBLIC SAFETY 

JUST A LAW ENFORCEMENT POLICE 

ISSUE OR IS PUBLIC SAFETY AN 

ISSUE AROUND MY BASIC NEEDS. IS 

PUBLIC SAFETY THE FIRST THREE 

LEVELS OF MY BASIC NEEDS BEING 

MET.  THAT I'M SAFE.  I GOT 

SHELTER. CLEAN WATER. ALL THOSE 

THINGS. IF WE CHANGE THE 

DEFINITION OF PUBLIC SAFETY, WE 

CHANGE WHO IS PART OF THE 

GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO HELP 

MAINTAIN PUBLIC SAFETY. IT 

DOESN'T MEAN POLICE GO AWAY, BUT

IT SHIFTS SOME OF WHAT OUR 

RESPONSIBILITIES ARE. SO I THINK

THAT'S PART OF IT.  I THINK PART

OF IT AS WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE 

EXPECTATIONS. JUST LIKE WHAT THE

CALL BEFORE. PEOPLE EXPECT IF 

YOU CALL 911 YOU ARE SENDING THE

POLICE. I HAVE CHIEF FRIENDS 

ELSEWHERE IF THEY IMPLEMENT A 

POLICY AND DON'T SEND ANYBODY 

THEY WON'T BE THE CHIEF FOR 

LONG. THE MAYOR WON'T BE THE 

MAYOR FOR LONG AND THE CITY 

MANAGER WON'T BE THE MANAGER FOR

LONG.  THAT'S COMMUNITY DRIVEN. 

YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT LEVEL OF 

CONVERSATION. YES, YOU NEED TO 

CHANGE SOME OF THE TRAINING. 

WE'VE ALREADY CHANGED THE 

GENERATION OF POLICE OFFICER 

FROM THE TIME I STARTED 30 YEARS

AGO VERSUS THE KIND OF POLICE 

OFFICER WE BRING IN TODAY. 

TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. 

COMPETENCY BASED. WE'RE LOOKING 

FOR PEOPLE THAT -- LOOK, SOME 

PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.  

THEY ARE SOMETIMES MORE SOCIAL 

WORK THAN ENFORCE FORCEER. I 

WILL TAKE ISSUE WITH ONE THING 

BARRY SAYS. BARRY TALKS ABOUT 

POLICE. I HEAR HIM SAY POLICE 

EQUALS FORCE AND LAW. I DON'T 

BELIEVE -- POLICE DOES NOT HAVE 

TO EQUAL FORCE AND LAW.  THAT'S 

NOT ALL WE DO. USE OF FORCE, 

SUBJECT CONTROL SHOULD JUST BE A

SMALL PIECE. LOOK AT POLICE 

AGENCIES ALLOCATION OF FUNDS AND

RESOURCES AND HOURS IN TO 

TRAINING. WHERE ARE THEY 

SPENDING MOST OF THEIR MONEY? IS

IT USE OF FORCE AND DRIVING OR 

IS IT THE SKILLS YOU WANT THEM 

TO HAVE? CULTURAL UNDERSTANDING,

UNDERSTANDING IMPLICIT BIAS, 

MANAGING INTERPERSONAL 

INTERACTIONS, MENTAL HEALTH 

CRISIS. THE KIND OF THINGS YOU 

DON'T SEE ON TV, POLICE OFFICERS

DO EVERY DAY THAT'S MORE IN LINE

WITH A SOCIAL WORKER THAN A 

SPECIAL FORCES PERSON IN THE 

ARMY. 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: JUST TO BE 

CLEAR I WAS GOING TO PIPE DOWN 

ON THIS QUESTION BUT I THINK WE 

COMPLETELY AGREE. I JUST WANT TO

BE CLEAR ABOUT IT. THE -- MY 

CLAIM ISN'T THAT -- SO I THINK 

DURING THE COURSE OF THE DAY 

MOST OF WHAT POLICE OFFICERS GET

ASKED TO DO IS MEDIATION, SOCIAL

WORK, WHATNOT.

THAT IS WHAT WE AS SOCIETY CALL 

ON THEM TO DO. SOMETIMES POLICE 

WILL SAY THIS ALL GOT DUMPED ON 

US AND I WANT TO BE OUT THERE 

FIGHTING CRIME AND I'M NOT -- I 

DON'T KNOW WHEN IT GOT DUMPED.  

IT'S GONE ON FOR MANY YEARS THAT

IT'S BEEN THIS WAY. WHAT I'M 

INTERESTED IN IS WHAT WE'RE 

TRAINING OFFICERS TO DO. THE 

SHERIFF AND I WERE TALKING 

EARLIER TODAY AND WE'RE GOING TO

PUT UP ON OUR WEBSITE THESE PIE 

CHARTS THAT SHOWS WHAT A LOT OF 

AGENCIES ARE DOING AND WHERE 

THEY'RE SPENDING TRAINING 

DOLLARS. WASHTENAW COUNTY IS AN 

EXCEPTION TO WHAT I'VE SEEN IN 

THAT THEY'RE INVESTING MORE 

MONEY IN SOCIAL WORK AND 

MEDIATION, INTERPERSONAL SKILLS,

AND I THINK THAT'S ENTIRELY 

COMMENDABLE. THE CHALLENGE IS 

YOU STILL WANT THE OFFICERS TO 

BE WELL TRAINED IN THE USE OF 

FORCE AND SO IT MEANS, YOU KNOW,

THERE'S MORE EXPENSE THERE JUST 

TRAINING YOUR OFFICERS.  BUT I 

THINK THAT'S THE GOAL IS TO HAVE

WELL ROUNDED INDIVIDUALS WHO CAN

DEAL WITH ALL THESE PROBLEMS AS 

FIRST RESPONDERS. 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I THINK 

YOUR QUESTION ALSO MENTIONED IF 

CALLERS SHOULD KNOW TO CALL 

OTHER PEOPLE INSTEAD OF 911. SO 

I OFTEN THINK THE MOMENT OF 

INTERACTION BETWEEN THE MOMENT 

AND CALL TAKER COULD BE A MOMENT

FOR LEGAL SOCIALIZATION OF THE 

PERSON CALLING. SOME PEOPLE 

CALLING DEFINITELY WANT THE 

POLICE AND ARE SET ON THAT AND 

SAY THAT. OTHER PEOPLE ARE LIKE 

I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD HAVE 

CALLED, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS 

AN EMERGENCY, I'M NOT SURE. IN 

THOSE MOMENTS IF WHAT THEY'RE 

ASKING FOR COULD BE HANDLED BY 

ANOTHER AGENCY LIKE ANIMAL 

CONTROL ISSUE OR A CRITTER 

CONTROL IF IT'S AN ANIMAL IN 

YOUR OWN HOUSE, OR MICHIGAN 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

WILL GO OUT FOR BROKEN DOWN 

VEHICLES ON HIGHWAYS.  LIKE 

TAKING THE TIME EVEN THOUGH IT'S

BUSY IN THESE INTEREST CENTERS 

TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU ARE DOING 

AND WHY YOU ARE DOING IT COULD 

HELP THEM UNDERSTAND WHAT POLICE

DO AND DON'T DO IN SOME WAY. 

HOPEFULLY GIVE THEM THAT 

KNOWLEDGE IN THE FUTURE WHEN 

THEY THINK ABOUT CALLING 

THE NEXT QUESTION ASKS:  I

UNDERSTAND FOCUS FOR THIS TALK 

IS ABOUT BIAS IN TERMS OF 

RESPONDING BY SENDING LAW 

ENFORCEMENT.  HOWEVER, ARE 

PEOPLE OF COLOR LESS LIKELY TO 

GET ADEQUATE RESPONSES TO THEIR 

EMERGENCIES? 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I DON'T 

THINK THAT'S THE CASE INSIDE 

DISPATCH. I THINK INCIDENTS COME

IN AND DEPENDING ON WHAT TYPE OF

INCIDENT THE PERSON IS HAVING, 

THAT DICTATES THE RESPONSE, NOT 

NECESSARILY WHERE THEY'RE 

CALLING FROM OR WHO THEY ARE AS 

A CALLER. I DON'T THINK THAT'S 

THE DRIVING FORCE IN THE CALL 

TAKER'S DECISION ABOUT WHETHER 

THEY'RE GOING TO REJECT A CALL. 

I THINK THE TYPE OF INCIDENT 

THAT THE CALLER IS SAYING DRIVES

THAT DECISION OR THE DESIRE TO 

BE ABLE TO REJECT A CALL, EVEN 

IF THEY DON'T. 

 JERRY CLAYTON: I THINK I WILL

JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING 

BROADLY.  IT'S THE RESOURCES.  

SO, YOU HAVE COMMUNITIES 

ECONOMICALLY CHALLENGED WITH 

FEWER RESPONSES TO RESOURCES. 

SOME OF THOSE COMMUNITIES MAY BE

COMMUNITIES OF COLOR SO YOU MAY 

SEE A LONGER RESPONSE TIME. TO A

LEGITIMATE CALL FOR SERVICE. IS 

IT BECAUSE IT IS A COMMUNITY OF 

COLOR OR BECAUSE IT IS A SOCIAL 

ECONOMIC ISSUE? WE KNOW THOSE 

THINGS OFTENTIMES GO HAND IN 

HAND.  BUT YOU MAY SEE THAT 

KIND. IF INTENTIONAL? I WOULD 

HOPE NOT. IF YOU SEE IT A LOT OF

TIMES IT'S BECAUSE OF RESOURCE 

ISSUES. DO EXAMPLES EXIST OF 

MUNICIPAL UNITS HAVE DEVELOPED 

ALTERNATIVE TO POLICE RESPONSES 

TO MENTAL HEALTH AND SOCIAL WORK

PROBLEMS? THERE ARE A NUMBER OF 

DIFFERENT NATIONAL MODELS. A LOT

OF THEM ARE CO-RESPONDING MODELS

IF. SOSZ THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE 

MOSTLY. POLICE AND THE MENTAL 

HEALTH PROFESSIONAL WORKING 

TOGETHER. A LOT OF CIT, CRISIS 

INTERVENTION TEAMS, WHERE 

ESPECIALLY IN CRITICAL 

SITUATIONS WHERE SOMEONE'S IN 

MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS YOU WILL 

SEE A POLICE RESPONSE BUT THEY 

CO-RESPOND WITH A MENTAL HEALTH 

PROFESSIONAL. THERE IS A DESIRE 

AND A LOT OF DISCUSSION THAT IT 

SHOULD BE A SINGLE RESPONSE AND 

IF IT IS A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE 

IT SHOULD JUST BE A MENTAL 

HEALTH RESPONSE. THE TRICK WITH 

THAT IS WHAT IF IT IS A MENTAL 

HEALTH RESPONSE AND THAT PERSON 

IS IN SUCH CRISIS THAT HE OR SHE

POSES A DANGER TO HIM OR 

HERSELF? MAYBE THEY CAN BE 

TALKED DOWN. MAYBE THERE MIGHT 

HAVE TO BE CONTROL TECHNIQUES 

USED TO MAINTAIN THE SAFETY FOR 

EVERYBODY INVOLVED.  SO, IF YOU 

JUST SEND THE NON-POLICE PERSON 

MIGHT THAT BE ENOUGH? I'M NOT 

SURE. I'M NOT ADVOCATING. THIS 

TAKES US TO WHEN IN DOUBT JUST 

SEND THEM RIGHT? I DON'T 

ADVOCATE THAT APPROACH WE JUST 

HAVE TO BE MORE THOUGHTFUL AND 

IF THERE'S GOING TO BE A NEW 

MODEL WHAT SHOULD THAT MODEL 

LOOK LIKE AND HOW SHOULD WE DO 

IT? 

JESSICA GILLOLLY: THERE'S 

ALSO A HOTLINE THAT RUNS 24/7. 

THERE TIMES WHEN A CALLER SAYS 

THEY JUST WANT TO TALK TO 

SOMEONE ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON. 

SOMETIMES THAT CALLER CAN BE 

TRANSFERRED TO THE HOTLINE AND 

TALKED TO ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS. 

THEN IF A RESPONSE IS NEEDED OR 

THE PERSON ON THE 24/7 HOTLINE 

NEEDS THAT THEY CAN HAVE THE 

POLICE GO OUT TO THAT ADDRESS.  

IT'S NOT COMMON TO ONLY TRANSFER

THE CALL AND NOT SEND POLICE BUT

IT IS AN INTERESTING IDEA TO 

THINK ABOUT IF THAT CAN BE 

LEVERAGED MORE. 

JERRY CLAYTON: I DON'T WANT 

US TO THINK THE POLICE ARE 

INCAPABLE OF MANAGING A MENTAL 

HEALTH CRISIS. CAN THEY BE 

TRAINED AND SKILLED ENOUGH TO 

RESPOND TO A SITUATION, 

DE-ESCALATE THE SITUATION, 

UNDERSTAND ENOUGH ABOUT MENTAL 

HEALTH ISSUES, UNDERSTAND ENOUGH

ABOUT STIGMA TO MANAGE IT ENOUGH

TO WHERE THE PERSON IS STABLE.  

WE AEF DEVELOPED A TWO-DAY 

MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS TRAINING 

ADOPTED BY THE STATE OF 

MICHIGAN.  WE'RE TRYING TO DO A 

STATEWIDE EMERGENCE TO GET ALL 

POLICE OFFICERS TRAINED IN THE 

BASICS OF MENTAL HEALTH.  TO 

RECOGNIZE THE BEHAVIORS AND TO 

GAIN ADDITIONAL SKILLS SO THEY 

CAN MANAGE THAT SITUATION AND 

BRING IT TO THE KIND OF 

RESOLUTION WHERE EVERYBODY IS 

SAFE.  SO, I DON'T WANT US TO 

THINK THAT POLICE ARE INCAPABLE.

WE JUST GOT TO INVEST THE RIGHT 

TRAINING.  

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: AND YOU NEED 

THE HANDOFF. AND THAT'S PART OF 

THE PROBLEM. I THINK TOO OFTEN 

WE THINK THAT THE POLICE ARE 

GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM 

BECAUSE THEY RESPOND TO THE 

CALL.  BUT THE CALL IS JUST THE 

IMMEDIATE NEED, WHICH SOMETIMES 

IS THEN RESOLVED WITH THE CALL.

BUT SOMETIMES YOU IDENTIFY THEN 

A DEEPER PROBLEM, WHETHER IT IS 

A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE, WHETHER 

IT'S A DIFFICULT LIVING 

SITUATION WHERE THERE'S REPEATED

DOMESTIC ARGUMENTS, WHERE OTHER 

SOCIAL SERVICES NEED TO STEP IN 

AND YOU NEED A BETTER HANDOFF. I

JUST GET ON A SOAPBOX, WHICH IS 

THAT I -- THERE ARE INTERESTING 

PROGRAMS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE 

COUNTRY AND THERE ARE 18,000 

POLICING AGENCIES SO THERE'S ALL

KINDS OF INNOVATION. IN FACT 

THERE IS MORE PARTICULARLY THE 

SOAPBOX OF THE FOUNDATION WHICH 

TO SAY WE THINK POLICE JUST KEEP

DOING THINGS THE SAME BAY BUT 

THEY INVAT.  WE DON'T FUND 

NEARLY ENOUGH TO FIGURE OUT 

WHETHER THE DIFFERENT THINGS 

THAT AGENCIES AND JURISDICTIONS 

ARE TRYING ARE EFFECTIVE AND WE 

OUGHT TO TRY TO DEFUSE THROUGH 

THE MANY AGENCIES THAT ARE OUT 

THERE.  SO, WE HAVE A LOT OF 

LEARNING THAT WE NEED TO DO. 

HOW RECEPTIVE HAVE 

OFFICERS BEEN IN YOUR EXPERIENCE

AND STUDIES TO THE KIND OF 

TRAINING THAT REDUCES BIAS IN 

POLICING? HOW DO YOU OVERCOME 

RESISTANCE TO BIAS-FREE 

TRAINING? 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: I DON'T KNOW 

IF I AM IN THE BEST POSITION TO 

ANSWER THAT QUESTION. SOME 

PEOPLE ARE OPEN TO IT AND SOME 

ARE NOT. I'LL JUST SAY THIS.  

WHEN YOU CALL EVERYBODY TO A 

MEETING AND SAY WE'RE GOING DEAL

WITH YOUR RACISM IN THIS 

MEETING, PEOPLE ARE LIKE, OH 

GOOD, I'M A GOOD PERSON AND THIS

IS GOING TO HELP.  SO, YOU KNOW,

WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE 

TALK ABOUT THIS IN A WAY THAT 

MAKES PEOPLE RECEPTIVE TO BEING 

PART OF THE SOLUTION. 

 JERRY CLAYTON: I THINK BARRY 

COVERED IT.  IT'S REALLY HOW WE 

TALK ABOUT IT.  I'VE BEEN IN 

TRAININGS AND AROUND TRAINING 

WHERE THEY SET IT UP ALMOST JUST

LIKE THAT. AND PEOPLE -- IT'S 

CUESTORY AND PEOPLE HAVE SHUT 

DOWN. THE OTHER THING IS SO GIVE

ME SOME PRACTICAL SKILLS.  AND 

SO I USED TO TEACH BIAS-BASED 

POLICING. I USE TO WORK WITH 

JOHN LAMBERT AND WE USE TO DO 

RACIAL PROFILING SUDIES. I 

REMEMBER TEACHING THIS TO POLICE

OFFICERS. THE THING THAT WORKED 

THE BEST IS TO CHALLENGE THE 

ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT'S THE 

MOST EFFECTIVE PRACTICES. 

SEARCHES, WHO TO SEARCH.  TEN 

WHEN WE STARTED TO HIGHLIGHT WAS

HIT RATES. I'LL BE REALLY QUICK.

WE DID A LOT OF STUDIES AND 

FOUND THE HIT RATE. THE HIT RATE

IS THIS. YOU DO A SEARCH OF A 

VEHICLE, WE DO A LOT OF SEARCHES

AND LOOK FOR GUNS AND DRUGS, 

WHAT'S THE PERCENTAGE OF TIMES 

YOU GET A HIT.  STUDY AFTER 

STUDY AFTER STUDY, FIVE PERCENT,

SIX PERCENT, SEVEN PERCENT. WAIT

A MINUTE, LET'S START DOING THE 

MATH. HOW MANY DO YOU DO, HOW 

MUCH TIME DOES IT TAKE, THE 

RESOURCES AND YOUR SUCCESS RATE 

IS FIVE PERCENT? IF YOU WERE CEO

OF A BUSINESS YOU WOULD BE 

FIRED.  SO, IF THAT IS ONE OF 

THE THINGS THAT WE DO, WE MUST 

NOT BE DOING IT RIGHT.  SO, WE 

STARTED TALKING ABOUT THE BIAS. 

BLACK PERSON IN A WHITE 

NEIGHBORHOOD OR WHITE GUYS A 

BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD AT THIS TIME 

OF DAY THEY CAN ONLY BE DOING 

THIS, WE SHOULD SEARCH. 

CHALLENGING SOME OF THE OLD 

BASIC ASSUMPTIONS TO NOT ONLY 

SAY IT'S NOT THE RIGHT THING TO 

DO, IT'S NOT EVEN EFFECTIVE.  

IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU ENGAGE AND 

HAVE THE DISCUSSIONS WHERE YOU 

START TO MINIMIZE THE RESISTANCE

AND OPEN PEOPLE UP TO MAYBE 

THERE'S SOME VALUE IN THE 

DISCUSSION. 

SO POLICE DEPARTMENTS HAVE

USED NUISANCE CALLS FINES FOR 

LIMITING THE USE OF CALLING 911 

ALL THE TIME. HAVE THEY BEEN 

USED FOR BIAS CALLS? AND IF SO 

ARE THEY SUCCESSFUL IN TRAINING 

TO LIMIT THOSE CALLS?. 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: I'VE NOT 

HEARD ABOUT THEM USED FOR BIASED

CALLS. AND I DO WORRY SOMETIMES 

ABOUT THE CALL FINDING.  

SOCIOLOGIST MATT DESMOND HAS 

WRITTEN A PIECE ABOUT 911 CALLS 

IN MILWAUKEE AND LANDLORDS 

INCURRED FINES IF TENANTS CALLED

MORE THAN THREE TIMES A MONTH TO

THAT THE WOMEN ENDED UP BEING 

EVICTED FROM WHERE THEY WERE 

LIVING BECAUSE THEY WERE CALLING

MONTH BECAUSE THEY WERE VICTIMS 

OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.  SO, THIS 

POLICY CREATED A DIFFICULT 

SITUATION FOR WOMEN WHO FELT 

LIKE IF THEY CALLED 911 THEY 

MIGHT GET EVICTED. IF THEY 

DIDN'T, THEY WERE GOING TO GET 

ABUSED. SO I THINK CALL 

FINES ARE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS 

POLICY BASED ON HIS FINDINGS. 

THE FRAMEWORK AND LAWS 

AROUND DISCRETION SEEM HEAVILY 

TILTED TOWARDS POLICE. THEY'RE 

ESSENTIALLY WRITING THEIR OWN 

RULES. WHEN FORCE IS USED 

UNJUSTIFIABLY AND WRONGFUL 

ARRESTS ARE MADE, THERE'S LOW 

ACCOUNTABILITY.  HOW DO WE 

CREATE MORE BALANCED RULES AND 

FRAMEWORKS? 

 BARRY FRIEDMAN: I'M GLAD YOU 

ASKED. I MEAN, THAT QUESTION 

BETRAYS WHAT I THINK IS THE 

MISCONCEPTION ABOUT WHAT IT 

MEANS TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY IN 

THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM.  SO, IN 

ANY WELL FUNCTIONING GOVERNANCE 

SYSTEM YOU HAVE TO HAVE A FRONT 

END AND A BACK END. YOU HAVE TO 

HAVE AN ADEQUATE, LEGITIMATE SET

OF RULES TO GUIDE BEHAVIOR.  AND

THEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE 

CONSEQUENCES FOR VIOLATIONS OF 

THE RULES. AROUND POLICING THERE

ARE LOTS OF CALLS FOR 

CONSEQUENCES, BUT WE DON'T HAVE 

A WELL-DEVELOPED SET OF RULES IN

THE FIRST PLACE. AND WITHOUT 

THAT WELL DEVELOPED SET OF 

RULES, WE'RE ALL LIVING IN A 

FANTASY WORLD TO THINK THERE'S 

GOING BE ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE 

BACK END. ONCE YOU HAVE THAT 

SYSTEM IN PLACE, FUNCTIONING AS 

IT OUGHT TO, THEN IN FACT THE 

BACK END IS SUPER HELPFUL 

BECAUSE YOU CAN LEARN THINGS ON 

THE BACK END. BY THE WAY, 

ACCOUNTABILITY DOESN'T ALWAYS 

MEAN SOMEONE GETS PUNISHED. IT 

ALSO MEANS REVIEW.  WE SIT 

AROUND AND FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT 

WRONG.  BUT THE BACK END CAN 

HELP YOU PUT IN PLACE NEW 

PROTOCOLS AND PROCEDURES AND 

POLICIES ON THE FRONT END. THE 

ERROR WE HAVE MADE IN THIS 

COUNTRY AND I'M DEEPLY 

SYMPATHETIC TO THE PASSION 

AROUND CALLS FOR PUNISHMENT AND 

BACK END ACCOUNTABILITY WHEN 

TERRIBLE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED, I

STILL LOOK AT IT AND SAY, IT'S 

JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. YOU 

ARE NEVER GOING TO BE SATISFIED 

UNTIL WE DO A GOOD JOB ON THE 

FRONT END OF HAVING LEGITIMATE, 

ACCEPTABLE, DEMOCRATICALLY 

FORMULATED RULES AND POLICIES 

AND PROTOCOLS THAT PEOPLE CAN 

AGREE ON THE WAY THAT THINGS 

NEED TO BE DONE. 

THIS QUESTION IS:  IF 

DISPATCHERS DO NEED TO PASS 

THESE CALL ODDS TO THE POLICE 

AND THEY ARE FEARFUL THESE ARE 

BIAS BASED CALLS, IS THERE ANY 

COMMUNICATION THAT HAPPENS 

WITHIN THE DISPATCHER AND THE 

POLICE TO KIND OF SIGNAL WE'RE 

NOT SURE, WE'RE GOING SEND IT 

OUT, BUT WE'RE AFRAID THIS MIGHT

BE A BIAS CALL? 

 JESSICA GILLOLLY: WHEN CALL 

TAKERS ENTER CALLS INTO THE 

COMPUTER SYSTEM THERE'S A NOTES 

FIELD WHERE THEY CAN TYPE UP 

NOTES ABOUT THE CALL. IN THAT 

FIELD THINGS COULD BE PASSED ON 

AND SOMETIMES ARE THAT, YOU 

KNOW, THE CALLER HAS NO 

EXPLANATION FOR WHY THE PERSON'S

BEHAVIOR IS SUSPICIOUS. AND THAT

INFORMATION THEN CAN BE RELAYED 

FROM THE DISPATCHER TO THE 

RESPONDING POLICE OFFICER.  

WHICH I THINK IS A DIFFERENT 

SORT OF RESPONSE THAN IF A 

POLICE OFFICER GETS A CALL THAT 

SAYS, SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY AT 

THIS LOCATION.  BUT HAVING THAT 

INFORMATION THAT THE CALLER WAS 

NOT ABLE TO GIVE A REASON WHY 

THIS PERSON LOOKS SUSPICIOUS, I 

THINK CHANGES THE IDEA WHAT THAT

CALL MIGHT BE ABOUT. SO I THINK 

THAT COMMUNICATION IS REALLY 

IMPORTANT. 

 JERRY CLAYTON: I AGREE. AND 

THE PROTOCOL WE'RE DEVELOPING 

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO. 

WE'RE GOING ESTABLISH WHAT WE'RE

CALLING RIGHT NOW THAT 

REASONABLE SUSPICION THRESHOLD. 

WHAT THOSE CRITERIA ARE. THEN IF

IT'S NOT MET THEN DISPATCHER OR 

CALL TAKER ASKING A COUPLE OF 

QUESTIONS, TRY IS TO GET THAT 

INFORMATION INTO THE COMPUTER SO

THE OFFICER OR DEPUTY KNOWS 

GOING IN WHAT THEY'RE FACING. 

I'LL SAY ONE MORE THING IN 

WASHTENAW COUNTY. BECAUSE WE 

DISPATCH FOR DIFFERENT AGENCIES 

IT'S GOING OUSH PROTOCOL BUT 

EACH AGENCY DECIDES WHETHER THEY

WANT US TO SEND A RESOURCE OR 

NOT.  SO, PART OF OUR JOB IS NOW

ONCE WE START TO LAY IT ALL OUT 

IS TO ENGAGE EACH ONE OF THOSE 

AGENCIES AND SAY HERE'S HOW 

WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS DISPATCH 

PROTOCOL FOR MANAGING BIAS 

CALLED HOW DO YOU WANT US TO 

WORK WITH YOU.

 I'M JUST GOING TO STAND UP 

AND SAY THANK YOU. 

 (APPLAUSE).

AND WHAT A GREAT AND 

RICH, INTERESTING CONVERSATION. 

I JUST HAVE A THOUSAND MORE 

QUESTIONS TO ASK AFTERWARDS, BUT

LEARNED A TON. PLEASE JOIN US 

ALL AND OUR WONDERFUL GUESTS FOR

A RECEPTION IN THE GREAT HALL. 

THE GUESTS WILL BE HAPPY TO HANG

OUT FOR A BIT.  AND THANKS ALL 

FOR BEING HERE.