Walsh and Guttenberg: Two Dads Defending Democracy

0:00:02.9 Celeste Watkins-Hayes: Well, good afternoon and welcome everyone to the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy. I'm Celeste Watkins-Hayes, the Joan and Sanford Weill Dean of the Ford School. And we are so happy to welcome former US Representative Joe Walsh and author and activist Fred Guttenberg, the two dads, here on Michigan's Parents Weekend. Welcome to you both.

[applause]

0:00:32.4 CW: So, let's welcome our moderator for today's event, Jonathan Cohn is a distinguished and award-winning journalist who's currently a senior national correspondent at HuffPost. We're so fortunate that Jonathan has taught classes for us here at the Ford School. Jonathan, thank you and welcome.

[applause]

0:00:54.9 CW: So, Jonathan will introduce our guests more fully in a moment. But first, I'd like to set the stage. Today's discussion is part of a years-long effort at the Ford School to encourage conversations across differences. With support from the Tuft Family Foundation, the Gottesman Family, and others, we host a number of events that seek to model paths forward in our deeply divided country. This work is so important to the Ford School and it's important to the broader university as well. I'm honored to be co-chairing the university-wide Year of Democracy, Civic Empowerment, and Global Engagement. Democracy depends on diverse perspectives and we hope to inspire people to express their views, to listen to others as well, and to think about this Democracy Theme Year as a launching pad for the work we will do in the future. As my co-chair of the Year of Democracy, Civic Empowerment, and Global Engagement, Jenna Bednar, who's also the head of UMICH Votes, often tells us and reminds us, democracy is not just what happens during elections, it's what we do in between. Happy to be partnering with you, along with Rosie Ceballo, LSA Dean on this work. So, we will have many more Year of Democracy events in the coming months and we hope you will continue to participate. So here are two quick promos.

0:02:24.5 CW: Next week on October 4th, we will host podcaster and Queer Eye star, Jonathan Van Ness. They'll be taping an episode of their podcast about voting in the Michigan Theater. And then on October 9th, we will host former governors John Kasich and Steve Bullock for another in our Conversations Across Differences series. We hope to see you there. So, a quick note about today's format. After about 45 minutes, we'll open the discussion up for audience questions. And for questions in the room, please use the QR code or submit one using the note cards that we have around the room. If you're watching online, hello and welcome. The question can be linked and accessed on the event page. So, if you go to our event page in the event description on YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook, you'll see a place where you can submit your question for consideration. So, now let me hand the mic over to Jonathan. Thanks so much.

0:03:26.2 Jonathan Cohn: Thank you, Celeste. And it is a real privilege to be here today. The title of today's session is Two Dads Defending Democracy. I'm a dad. I appreciate that. I appreciate seeing dads going out and defending democracy. I'm also a journalist who is old enough to remember a time when conversations were a little different than they are today, when there was not this kind of polarization, there was not this much hostility. For better or worse, I guess, and we'll get into that in a second. But I wanna introduce our guests. Many of you know them already. To my left, to be clear, not on the left, to my immediate left, Joe Walsh, who was elected to Congress in 2010 as part of the Tea Party wave. After his career in Congress, went on to host one of the most popular conservative podcasts in America, and today hosts a podcast called White Flag with...

0:04:21.3 Joe Walsh: Changed the name.

0:04:22.9 JC: Changed the name? Oh, breaking news. We have a new name for his podcast. What is the name?

0:04:27.0 JW: The Social Contract with Joe Walsh.

0:04:29.6 JC: The Social Contract with Joe Walsh, and hosts a podcast. Farther to my left is Fred Guttenberg, who became a national figure following the tragic massacre at Parkland at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High, where he lost his daughter, Jamie Guttenberg. And he became a national spokesperson for the cause of fighting gun violence. And I don't wanna say too much more about what they have both done because that's actually where I wanna start the conversation which is what you need to know as the kind of background for where we are today is that these two were on the opposite side of one of the most important debates in American politics, in America, which was gun violence. And yet, on the opposite side, and now they are together. And I want you guys to tell me, how did that all start? I don't know which one of you starts this usually.

0:05:22.6 JW: Well, Fred usually does, so I'm going to.

0:05:25.5 JC: Oh, you're going to, okay.

0:05:27.6 JW: I'm gonna be very brief and start, and then I'll let Fred start because I wanna provide context. For the next hour and a half, as long as you're gonna be here, he and I are gonna seem like best friends.

0:05:42.3 Fred Guttenberg: I do like you.

0:05:43.0 JW: And we're gonna smile and hit each other and pat each other on the back, and it's all roses and creams. We hated on each other only five years ago. We went after each other in ugly personal terms like cats and dogs on the issue of guns, primarily, but anything, on TV and social media. That's all I'm gonna say now, and then I'm gonna turn it over to someone who's now my friend. But you need to know that. When we do these talks at college campuses all around the country, and again, it's all, it's great, oh, look at these two. They disagreed on guns, and now they're best friends. You need to know the first part of that. We were where I think most of America is today.

0:06:33.6 JW: We went after each other in hateful, ugly ways about an issue, and that's what too much of us are doing now. But always remember that as you watch us today. You start.

0:06:46.4 FG: Thank you. So, as was noted, February 14th, 2018, my daughter Jamie was murdered in the parking shooting. And following her murder for the first 24 hours, it didn't hit me that it was gun violence. And my nephew's in the room back there, and he may remember this. The next night, I went to speak at a vigil in Parkland. And when I was there and speaking and seeing the audience, it hit me, gun violence. And I'll never forget walking into my house that night and saying to my family and anyone else who would listen to me, I'm going to break the fucking gun lobby. That became my mission. It became my purpose.

0:07:38.8 FG: And as part of that, and by the way, everyone in my family from that moment forward wanted to tell me how to do it. They all wanted to tell me what I needed to do, give me the strategy, give me the lessons, and I told them all just to leave me alone. I'm doing this my way. Because part of what I wanted to do was take on all the lunatics like Joe. And I was never gonna stop. I was gonna be relentless. But, I also wanted to talk to any human being, whether they were on my side or not, who wanted to have a meaningful conversation on how to do it. For the first few years, he and I did not have any meaningful conversations. And we went at each other on social media, back and forth, back and forth, names and this and the other thing.

0:08:30.3 FG: And then three years ago, I started this initiative called Dads for Gun Safety just before Father's Day that year. And the reason I was starting it was, moms, and I see plenty of moms in here, you all have been amazing on this issue. Kids, you guys have been great. To the dads in the room, not so much. And I wanted to engage dads, and I wanted to engage gun owners to be a part of the idea of reducing gun violence. And so, I started this initiative. I went on social media about it. He at first started attacking me for it and saying all of this stuff. And then one day, he replies, "We probably disagree on everything you wanna do, but I respect the hell out of what you're trying to do." And that was it. From that point forward, our whole approach to each other on social media started to change. We actually started talking, typing, but yes.

0:09:34.4 JW: Can I interrupt? Can I interrupt?

0:09:35.0 FG: Yeah.

0:09:36.3 JW: Now we're such good friends, we interrupt each other. It was at this point where, as I began my metamorphose from a political conservative asshole to just a political conservative.

[laughter]

0:09:53.2 JW: And the gun issue has always been a big issue for me, the Second Amendment. I reached out at this point privately to the six most well-known gun safety activists. And I said, "Hi, it's Joe Walsh. I'd love to sit down with you privately and try to have a reasonable conversation about guns." Five of the six gave me the middle finger and told me to get lost, privately. He was the only guy who didn't give me the middle finger and said, we'll talk.

0:10:27.4 FG: And we did. And we eventually picked up the phone. And then when I was in DC, he invited me to have dinner with him and his wife. And once I met his wife, I liked him even more 'cause she's terrific.

0:10:41.3 JW: By the way, her name's Helene. Now we call her Hurricane Helene.

0:10:44.1 FG: She's destroying half the country right now, but that's a different conversation. So, we actually started genuinely liking each other. And we were sharing it on Twitter, the back and forth. Morning Joe picked up on it. And they hosted us for the Friday before that Father's Day to discuss this change between us and what it actually means. And we talked about how because we're talking and listening to one another, not doing this, we've actually started to find some common ground. Long story short, we know what we did to put aside what was honestly fake anger. We didn't know each other. We just were doing it, which is happening all across the country now. We know what we did and what it's meant, matters to the country.

0:11:45.6 FG: We know as a country, we are in a place right now where we gotta find more ways to start talking to one another, to start engaging, to start using the mouth less and the ears more, listening. There's a path forward and democracy depends on it.

0:12:03.3 JW: But to really answer your initial question, how did it start? The short answer is we took our fight private.

0:12:10.6 FG: Yeah.

0:12:11.6 JW: We went offline and communicated privately. And that's one of the biggest tools I give people, Fred and I give people on this topic is get off of the public fight and try to have a private conversation. It's amazing the progress you can make.

0:12:30.3 JC: So what do you notice that's different in a private? Why is a private conversation different? How do you communicate differently?

0:12:35.7 FG: So I'll give you...

0:12:37.8 JW: We watch our language privately.

0:12:39.5 FG: No, that we don't. [chuckle] But you know what? Joe always thought I hated him, 'cause he was a gun owner. And I was able to clearly let him know that is not true. Joe thought I was a gun grabber because I wanna reduce gun violence. He knows that isn't true. And when we took it offline and we actually were able to put away these incendiary beliefs we had about one another, we were able to start talking and we found, I brought him a long way. He now believes in background checks.

0:13:09.6 JW: Hold on a minute.

0:13:10.7 FG: He believes in red flag laws.

0:13:11.8 JW: Hold on, hold on, hold on.

0:13:12.6 FG: He's come a long way.

0:13:14.6 JW: Again, this is an important point. I'm a very public person. Fred's a very public person. Let's be honest. A lot of the public fighting, there's a performative aspect to it. "Oh, Guttenberg's coming for my guns. Oh, assault weapon ban." There's no such thing as assault weapon. A lot of it's performative. I was an elected official. You get points the more outrageous you can sound. I was a right-wing radio talk show host. When you're public, there's a performance aspect of it. When you're private, you don't need that. It's more real. The conversation can be more real.

0:13:54.3 JC: So social media is designed to do that. I mean, that's the whole way it's done. Algorithm is designed to do that. I mean, it's very sophisticated. I mean, they know how getting the likes fires the hormones and neurons. So, why'd you call him? And what gave you this idea? Or the six people? What prompted that?

0:14:10.2 JW: So I reached out to him and asked to speak to him privately because for those in the audience who don't know, we laughed about it a moment ago. I was a very politically divisive asshole. I went to Washington six years before Trump got elected and I wanted to burn it down, shake it up, all of that to Washington. I still believe our political system is broken. But I went to Washington, raised hell against everybody who disagreed with me. After four or five or six years of that, I realized I had made things worse. And I realized I wasn't making things better. So, I said to myself, I wanna try to do the opposite. I wanna try to see if I can find common ground with somebody. And I reached out on an issue that I care passionately about.

0:15:06.6 JC: And you weren't suspicious? I mean, this guy's called you all kinds of names.

0:15:10.4 JW: What did you say? You didn't trust me for that...

0:15:11.5 FG: No, I didn't. I didn't trust him and everyone, my wife...

0:15:16.4 JW: Said stay away.

0:15:17.3 FG: My wife, I'm still to this, I'm not sure to this day...

0:15:21.6 JW: To this Day.

0:15:22.4 FG: If she trusts him. But listen, and justifiably, because we were bad to each other.

0:15:29.6 JW: There was a lack of trust.

0:15:30.9 FG: And, he had such strong beliefs that he was publicly stating that were alien to the way I felt and that I believe caused part of the environment where someone like my daughter could get killed in school, that it was intensely personal. But I'm also a man of my word and I'm someone who believes everything I teach my kids. And one of the things that I teach my kids, and I believe this intensely, it's always easier in life to talk to those who you agree with, who you have common ground with already. It is far more necessary and important in life to find a way to talk to those who you don't.

0:16:22.7 FG: Because that's where real change and progress comes from. And if I teach my kids to do that, then I gotta find a way to talk to him.

0:16:33.1 JW: We didn't trust each other in our first private conversations. We began to trust each other a little bit more in all the subsequent conversations. And then here's another warning, gang. This is, again, why it's hard for Americans to do this. Because as this friendship began to go public, and as Fred and I began to publicly show people that we were sitting down and trying to find common ground, oh my word, the incoming, the shit I got from people on my side, and the shit he got from people on his side, how dare you talk to Guttenberg, Joe? He's trying to take away your guns. I mean, we still get that today.

0:17:15.8 FG: But you know what? But far less. And here's the thing. It is, sometimes in life, you have to push forward and lead. And us modeling this is so damn important because when we look across the country and we see the way people talk to each other and we see the lack of decency and we see the lack of civility, all because people have a difference of opinion, we wanna show people it doesn't have to be that way. And what Joe said earlier about us taking it private and offline was a really big deal. And that first dinner where we actually took the time to not just talk about the stuff we disagree on, but about the fact that you're a dad who loves your family and I'm a dad who loves my family. And by the way, we had a few drinks also, it didn't hurt. Okay, but we're two dads who love our families.

0:18:14.6 FG: And the truth is, even though we have many disagreements on what to do about the issue of gun violence, I trust that Joe doesn't wanna see more gun violence in America. And he needed to hear that from me to trust me also. It's not just about me trusting you.

0:18:34.0 JW: But again, this isn't all peaches and cream, this is hard. And as a former congressman and a former media guy, we are incentivized to preach to our base and to outrage them and to get them fired up on both sides. My side on the right may be worse at this right now, but both sides do it. There aren't a lot of TV shows, right?

0:19:02.0 JW: Doing this kind of thing. There aren't a lot of podcasts doing this kind of thing. The money and the ratings are all, I'm gonna be over here on the right. I'm gonna be a crazy man and get Fox News to put me on every night. Or I'm gonna go over here on the left. I'm gonna go on MSNBC and say, Trump is a horrible person so I can get on every night. That's where the money is, that's where the ratings are. And if you wanna get elected in each party, that's how you get nominated. So we are, this is still very much against the grain.

0:19:35.9 FG: Can I say something though? And it's a true testament and compliment to this campus. Because, today we visited your voting center, which I'm blown away by. Like, making voting accessible and easy, which should be the standard everywhere and everyone should vote. But the problem is everyone doesn't vote. In fact, a real minority of people only vote. Which is why you have these more extreme political figures now, who are only incentivized to talk to that minority of voters that they know are gonna turn out. If more places do what you are doing here, to incentivize people to vote 'cause and by making it so damn easy, and reminding them it's your civil responsibility as part of a democracy. If we can get a majority of people voting, the incentives to be caustic and uncivil, go away. The need to talk to a majority of Americans, and the majority of us are decent and civil becomes more important. I am a firm believer in voting solves problems. I am a firm believer in the more of us who vote, the better things become. I am a firm believer in this election being a truly different moment for our country. Because if a majority of us show up in vote and make it clear that we want to see decency, civility, and democracy, you will see political leaders start to deliver that. And so, it's on us.

0:21:23.6 JW: He's more optimistic.

0:21:24.7 FG: Vote. We vote. Quit preaching.

0:21:25.1 JW: I believe that you're more optimistic.

0:21:26.0 FG: It's on us.

0:21:27.9 JW: He's more optimistic than I am.

0:21:31.3 JC: I wanna get back to what you were saying about media before and how, like the I mean, I do remember when there were more shows when there were back forth, but you both have thought about this a lot. Do you feel like the media environment has changed? I mean, is it harder to have these conversations on TV and the ra... I mean, and why?

0:21:47.2 JW: Right now, if you were CNN or Fox News, or MSNBC, I'll just pick the big three, and somebody came to you with, I'm gonna have a show where I'm gonna put two people on opposite sides and they're gonna have a rationable, reasonable, respectful conversation about issues. I don't think any network right now would touch that show. There used to be a show called Crossfire, right? These kind, but they then just degenerated into arguing and yelling at each other. That's what it would become. A show where two people are gonna listen to each other. I just don't think there's a market for that right now.

0:22:31.8 FG: But it has changed. Listen, it wasn't that long ago where news was delivered by nightly news shows from trusted, respected anchors that we watch and we got our news from. And then we went on and we actually had this thing called a life. Okay? Now we're on our phones 24/7, absorbing media and news all day long. Whether it's from traditional networks or CNN, MSNBC, Fox, or TikTok, or YouTube video. But it's coming at us 24/7. And the need to get content in front of people that they want to see has caused it to be performative. Instead of, and everybody now has like, their desire choices to go for the performance art that they wanna see. But the idea of trusted news anchors, which is what we grew up with, it doesn't exist anymore.

0:23:32.2 JW: Yeah. But we ain't never going back to that. And it's easy to blame the media. It's easy to blame social media. But this is on us. This is on us. Most Americans, damn near everybody in this beautiful room. You live in a bubble, and you're weird 'cause you're here on a Friday afternoon. Oh my God, go out onto campus, great people all but they don't give a damn about this shit.

0:24:00.1 JC: There is a big football game coming.

0:24:02.5 JW: I don't care about that.

0:24:03.9 FG: That's tomorrow.

0:24:04.4 JC: That's tomorrow.

0:24:05.1 JW: I've never been in the big house.

[laughter]

0:24:09.6 JW: Never. But it's on us. Come on, be honest. Most of us live in a political bubble. We talk to, we listen to, we read from people who kind of confirm what we believe. It's a minority of Americans who are comfortable going outside their bubble. And we have to change that.

0:24:39.5 FG: Listen, talk to people who you're not used to talking to. Watch something that you don't typically watch, but go out and broaden your horizons and trust that you can have a meaningful conversation with somebody else. But at the end of the day, and he's right, I am a little more optimistic than him, but it is on us. And when I say that, I think I mean something different than him. It's on us to show up and vote.

0:25:11.1 JC: Okay. Let's talk about this bubble for a second. So, you have been, how many universities, colleges have you done now, this is...

0:25:17.7 JW: Oh, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12.

[overlapping conversation]

0:25:19.9 JC: And you interact with the students. You've been on a campus now. What is your impression of what the campus environment is like? Or what kind of conversations are you hearing about and what are you seeing?

0:25:30.4 JW: So, I'll throw one observation in all the campuses we've visited is, I've been blown away by how fearful students are to do this. Whenever we take Q&A at the end of our presentation and students ask us questions, they ask us, how do you do it? I'm afraid to speak up in class. I have this group and I disagree within my group of friends on this issue. I'm afraid to tell them what I think. How do you do that? There is a fear among young people in this country, to express their point of view and engage with people they disagree with. We hear it over and over and it's really concerning.

0:26:19.9 FG: I'm shocked by how many young people have said they're not learning how to do this, and that they don't think they're learning civics as part of their education. I've been shocked by how many young people have said something along the lines of, if democracy doesn't go forward, does it really matter to us? That has been a shocking thing. I also have been shocked by the number of young people who have said, they want to have their ability to put their imprint on what happens. They want to be future leaders, but they're not sure they're gonna vote. And if you're gonna be a future leader, if you want to have a role in this democracy, it has to start with a commitment to vote. And I just wanna say something 'cause I harp on voting a lot.

0:27:14.8 JW: Yeah. You do.

0:27:15.0 FG: And I'm gonna tell you why. And if I sound like a broken record, I want to be clear on something. I consider what happened to my family to be an absolute failure of policy and government. And I was a dad who, while I was always engaged in yelling at a television, I always voted. I never used my voice to affect policy and change. I was never as involved as I should have been. And since my daughter's murder, and since I've become incredibly involved in what happens across this country with regards to policy, I believe in all of us. I believe when I go around the country and I speak to people who say they want to see these things happen, I know we can be better than this. And so, you are right. I am unfortunately a testament to what one can lose when policy fails, when government fails. And I don't want it to happen to anybody else.

0:28:21.3 JW: But he's also this guy, who I used to hate on. Is also a testament to getting involved into doing something. The other thing we hear on campuses a lot, again, probably not from any student here. 'Cause any student here is weird because you're curious enough to be here. Thank God, I mean that. But the other thing we hear on campus after campus, and this thing started in the spring. "Oh, Joe, I'm sick, of from young people. Politics sucks. And nobody's paying attention to us. And Trump's crazy. And this was, and Biden's too old. No, I don't give a damn, nobody... Our generation has it so bad. I'm just gonna check out." I've had so many young people tell me, "I'm just checking out. Our politics sucks." And I look at this guy and I say, his freaking daughter was gunned down in a college, in a high school.

0:29:18.9 JW: His daughter was killed, shot and killed. You talk about a guy who had every right to say, I'm checking out. And he didn't. He's dedicated his entire life to doing something about that. So, don't give me Biden's too old, and Trump sucks. I don't wanna hear that shit. He lost his daughter and he's involved and engaged. I love that high horse. Let me make my second point. The name of this tour is Two Dads Defending Democracy. I don't care who you're gonna vote for, I do, but I don't, I want you to vote. The reason we're doing this is because no matter who wins in November, I guarantee you this country in December and January is going to be a hundred times more divided, gonna be exhausted. We talk about how the two sides don't get along, we don't talk to each other, and then we want nothing to do with each other. And then we hate each other. And then all of a sudden what comes after hate, acts of violence. This country is going to be in an unbelievably scary place after this election. And democracy, I, as an old white guy, believe as an old fart believes, our democracy's done. If our country, again, doesn't start to do this, I don't give a damn who the president is. If we don't start to do this, democracy falls. That's why we're doing this tour.

0:30:56.7 JC: I think just play devil's advocate. For a little bit, for in the following sense. I'm gonna do this for both of you. So Joe, imagine I am a card-carrying member of the NRA. I am looking, we're here in this Ford School of Public Policy. We think about policy and politics. And I think my most of, I care passionately about. I think this is a fundamental right. It's in the constitution. It's my safety, it's my home. And the best way I can protect that is to fight like hell rile up my side, get my side being passionate. It doesn't do me any good talking here to Fred, making him out to be a nice guy who's considerate. Why should I listen to you?

0:31:40.8 JW: I would tell that card-carrying NRA member. I used to be a card-carrying NRA member. And I'm still every bit as much a gun rights guy as you are. And I will fight to defend like you will my friend, the Second Amendment and my right to defend myself wherever I go with a firearm whenever I want. But if we continue down this road, where we want nothing to do with the Fred Guttenbergs of the world, because he disagrees with us on this issue, this country will fall. And yeah, you'll still have your guns and your gun rights, but you will have a country at war with each other. And I tell any one of my gun-loving friends, you don't want get there, do you? And damn near all of them, don't want to go there.

0:32:33.0 FG: And I'll just say this, since you're a card-carrying member of the NRA, then you are likely one of the majority of card-carrying members of the NRA who actually agree with me that we can do more to reduce gun violence. That doing more to reduce gun violence is not an infringement on your rights. Doing more to reduce gun violence is not anti-Second Amendment. But doing everything we can to keep guns out of the hands of those who intend harm to themself or someone else is public safety. And it's not an affront to your rights. And the majority of card-carrying members of the NRA agree with that.

0:33:10.2 JW: And by the way, the other thing I'd say to him, when I reached out to Fred five years ago, four years ago.

0:33:18.7 FG: I think three.

0:33:19.0 JW: Three years ago, God.

0:33:21.6 FG: Not going that fast. [laughter]

0:33:22.5 JW: What a life. I'm getting so old. When I reached out to Fred and asked to speak privately, I did not, my goal was not to find common ground with Fred. That would've been like gravy. That would've been extra. I wanted to understand who he was, why he felt the way he did about guns. I wanted to understand where he was coming from, because I felt if I understood him, I wouldn't hate him even if we disagreed. So, I'd tell my gun rights guy, I'm not asking you to find common ground with Fred Guttenberg and his like. Understand where they're coming from because if you understand them, you're gonna gain some empathy and then you won't be as likely to hate. And then we won't be as likely to be like this.

0:34:20.7 FG: And because we did this, and this was truly an amazing thing on that Morning Joe episode just before Father's Day, which I think was supposed to run for like seven minutes. And we ended up on with Joe Scarborough for like 20 minutes, of which I think probably half of it, I sat back silent because he and Joe Scarborough, two gun guys, ended up going back and forth on all of the things that they agree as gun guys we can do to reduce gun violence. And they went on about all the different policies that make complete sense to me. And they had their own conversation and it was terrific to watch. But listen, the reality is I don't wanna affect his rights. Okay? And he agrees. And it's important because there's a lot we disagree on, but more effective background checks is not a bad thing. Red flag laws, not a bad thing. And they are saving lives, they are stopping gun violence. There's a lot other things I wish he would agree with me on, we continue to have those conversations, but again, we have, we are entitled to our own opinions, but we are committed to discussing them civilly. And I think that's important.

0:35:42.1 JW: And if you don't engage the other side, you caricature the other side. This is the gun issue, but you could do this on any issue. I was convinced he wanted to take my guns away, because I didn't understand him and I didn't talk to him. He was convinced that I didn't care about kids being shot up. Most of my really hardcore pro-gun rights guys are convinced that people like Fred do want to take our guns away, because they don't engage in these conversations. We caricature the other side.

0:36:15.2 FG: You know, in the last presidential debate, it actually, that character couture came up because, Trump started talking about Harris wanting to confiscate all the guns. And I think that was the first time everybody publicly learned, not only is that not true, but she's also a gun owner herself. This is not, being against gun violence is not anti-gun, it's anti-gun violence. And when we learn how to talk to each other and talk about it, we can make progress that supports the rights of those who want to be supported, but also includes every possible way to reduce the risk of violence to others. And that's a win for America.

0:37:00.6 JC: You've talked about both of you coming to an understanding about your motives. You are appreciating what Fred want, Fred, you're preaching what Joe wants. Has either of you actually changed, has either one of you changed the other's mind on a position or on a matter of substance and what is it?

0:37:19.4 JW: The policy?

0:37:20.6 JC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:37:21.0 JW: Yeah. Look, absolutely, absolutely.

0:37:22.7 FG: [0:37:22.7] ____ Your podcast.

0:37:24.5 JW: Yeah, absolutely. Look, talking to Fred and then talking to people like Fred, people that Fred introduced me to, I'm, and again, the context is I will defend the Second Amendment. Here's how I feel about the Second Amendment. I'll defend it till my death. My right to carry a gun to protect me and my family, I will defend that right as vigorously as I would defend the First Amendment. Sitting down with Fred and engaging in conversation with him, I opened my eyes and I opened my mind and I opened my heart on looking at issues, like expanding background checks, looking at ways to do...

0:38:15.0 JW: All we can do to make sure a guy who shouldn't get a gun, gets a gun before a gun is bought. So, I really opened up and changed some of my thinking on things like background checks and red flag laws, that I probably wouldn't have done with these conversations.

0:38:36.6 JC: Thank you, Fred.

0:38:38.8 FG: Jerk, big jerk.

0:38:42.7 JC: So, I think we're gonna shortly go to questions in a few minutes, but, let's do this. You can change one thing, you have a magic wand. You have one wish...

0:38:53.0 JW: I love this question.

0:38:56.8 JC: To make, to improve this kind of understanding, these kind of conversations. And you can't wish for more wishes. You can't get an extra wand that's not allowed. What do you do?

0:39:05.2 FG: So, I want one thing to, I wanna be clear. What's the, to do what?

0:39:11.6 JC: To improve this understanding, this conversation, to let people talk to each other and find common ground.

0:39:17.0 FG: You go first.

0:39:18.2 JW: No, you go first.

0:39:18.9 FG: No, you go first.

0:39:20.1 JC: You're always excited about, oh no, you go first. Okay.

0:39:22.9 FG: If I could change one thing, I think it would be for people to maybe give up a little bit of their ego in conversations, to accept the possibility that your position may not be 100% what you thought it was. And it's worth listening to someone else.

0:39:52.5 JW: If I could do one thing, and this goes against where I am politically and philosophically 'cause I'm a libertarian, I'm a very limited government guy. I'd have it be mandatory that either every high school graduate, or every college graduate, or every 18-year-old or every 21-year-old in this country has to go through a mandatory six-month period where they are immersed with people who don't think like them. I'd make it mandatory, philosophically, I probably don't agree with that, but I wish we could, I wish we could do something like that at an early age.

0:40:32.2 FG: That's kinda like the cue with mandatory voting.

0:40:34.8 JW: Yeah. No mandatory vote. Yeah. Yeah. I'd do that. I do that.

0:40:39.9 JC: Do we have some questions? You wanna start with some questions? And I have a few more I can sprinkle in later if we, we'll see how it goes.

0:40:46.2 Speaker 5: I'm just gonna read this question word for word. So, an audience member says, rates of gun violence at schools has only gotten worse. I'm a member of the Sandy Hook community. I was raised there and left in 2008. I was a high school freshman when it happened. What has voting done since then? I'm as active as it gets, vote across the board, local and all. I march and meet with reps on many issues. In undergrad, I was Mr. Active and always in policy spaces. Parkland happened my sophomore year. It has only gotten worse. What can you tell me to give me hope? I speak about my views with my friends who all have different views and we don't yell, but children are dying more and more as I remain civil.

0:41:29.6 FG: Can I answer that one first? And I appreciate the question and I'm glad that person asked it. So, I'm gonna start off by giving you some basic numbers and facts. We have about 115,000 schools in America. Up until 2018, we generally never had anything above 100 school shootings in a single year. So we're talking like 0.03%. It was not a, it's not a big number. Now, in the past few years, it has gone up to somewhere between four and 500 a year. When you think of it in the context of 115,000 schools on a percentage basis, it's not a huge jump. However, it's kind of almost triple where it was. And it's now involving AR-15s. So, it's catastrophic when it happens. Here's why you should have hope, and it's part of what I've been fighting for the past few years.

0:42:33.2 FG: In the past two years, we have in fact passed national legislation called the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. We now have an Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Back in March, vice President Harris visited me in Parkland and walked through the school, where my daughter was killed, which was still an untouched crime scene. There's still the bullet holes, the blood, the DNA, shards of glass, the coursework on desks as if kids had just gotten up. She saw it all. And we had tremendous conversations about how it happened, why it was as bad as it was, and what we can do going forward to lessen gun violence and to make it less deadly when it happens. The facts are, it's working. If you look at the data from the past 12 months, gun violence in this country is way down. When you look at the under 21 background checks that are a part of the Safer Communities Act legislation that was passed, it's working.

0:43:37.3 FG: They are stopping kids who intended gun violence from getting the means to do so. I toured the FBI site a few months ago. They went into a deep dive with us on all the data, and I will tell you, it is working. However, we have so much more to do. And I will say this, because we know it's working, because we know voting was the impetus to getting this kind of work done. If you want the work to continue, if you want the ability to decrease gun violence to continue, it's a really simple thing I'm gonna tell you all to do. But you got 39 days, actually many cases less 'cause of early voting, get out and just effing vote.

0:44:34.1 JW: I'll be very brief in my answer. And I'm going to exaggerate the numbers. There are a gazillion guns in this country.

0:44:44.8 FG: Over 400 million.

0:44:45.3 JW: There are a bunch are being bought today. We're never getting rid of guns in this country. We're never getting rid of the Second Amendment in this country. That ain't happening. You cannot stop, completely stop in a free society, a bad guy getting a gun and doing a bad thing. You can do your best to try to minimize that. Fred's mentioned some of the things that have been done. We need to do a much better job in this country of trying to, before a gun is bought, all we can do prevent a bad guy from buying a gun, we have to change and change the gun culture in this country, I acknowledge that. But we live in a free society. There are always gonna be bad, sick, evil people. A month ago, maybe a month and a half ago, a 14-year-old walked into a school in Georgia, a 14-year-old, a 14-year-old, a 14-year-old whose dad bought him a gun for Christmas. After...

0:45:55.5 FG: After a visit from the FBI and law enforcement.

[overlapping conversation]

0:45:57.1 JW: When he was 13, he threatened to get... So, there's a lot more we can do in a lot of areas. So, don't give up.

0:46:05.7 FG: And by the way, we are in a state where parents were legally held accountable for a son who went into a school and shot it up, Oxford. Okay? More of that. Okay. If you, let's use that prosecution as a standard for what's now gonna happen in Georgia and anywhere else when it happens going forward...

0:46:29.4 JW: Don't ever give up.

0:46:30.5 FG: But we have tools.

0:46:31.3 JW: Stay involved. Don't give up. Next question.

0:46:33.7 FG: Keep the hope.

0:46:34.6 JW: Keep hope alive.

[laughter]

0:46:37.7 JC: Amen. There are a lot of questions coming in about disinformation and misinformation, from both the left and the right saying, oh, it's all leftist, it's all, you know. How do you have a discussion with someone you disagree with when we can't even agree on the facts?

0:46:53.6 JW: That's such a great question. So, because I'm a reformed MAGA gangbanger, I voted for Trump in 2016. I come from that world. Those voters were my voters. Those supporters were my supporters. I engage with Trump supporters every day, and I've been doing it for six years, since I came out of the closet. And when I get into conversations with them, and they go down a road where we get to a point where, no, Joe Biden didn't win in 2020, Trump did. And then we walk through the facts of what happened in the 2020 election. You very respectfully just say, no, here's the truth. No, here's the truth. And eventually you get to a point where they just can't accept it. And then you respectfully hug and move on. But I'll tell you, because I engage with these people every day, and I've been doing it for years, every now and then, the light bulb goes off, when you just systematically put the nuggets of truth in front of them very patiently. It's not easy, but we can't stop trying to do it.

0:48:03.9 FG: And he knows this. I actually struggle with this one a lot, because I have certain ground rules around the conversations I have with people and facts is one of the ground rules. And when I realize I'm engaging with somebody who's utilizing information that comes from one of the many online sources that I know pedals in alternative facts, and nothing I say is gonna change that person, I will respectfully, say to the person, "We may not be able to go forward with this conversation. I respect your right to do whatever you want. I would love a chance at some point in the future if you start considering other sources to continue with this conversation." But I'm not gonna debate somebody on alternative facts. Especially listen, when you're around this work long enough and you hear certain things, we all know the sources that it comes from. And...

0:49:15.8 JW: It's from all over too, guys.

0:49:18.0 FG: Well, it spreads quick.

0:49:20.3 JW: There's, but there's misinformation and disinformation on all sides of our politics. All sides.

0:49:25.0 FG: But some is real hardcore. And some of these alternative sites pedal some really crazy stuff. And I, listen, I want to talk to people, I wanna engage people. But we have to have at least some modicum of agreement on information. And if we can't, I'm not going to question the person's humanity and decency. I just will... I don't wanna go down that path. I'd rather utilize my time right now for the next 39 days, to talk to every possible voter who wants to have an open mind and consider all the possibilities.

0:50:09.3 S5: I wanna talk about, and a lot of people are asking about current contexts on college campuses and how high a lot of tensions are, particularly around Israel and Palestine.

0:50:19.5 FG: Sure.

0:50:20.0 S5: Could you talk a little bit about your advice for college students on getting through to people who don't think like them on a particular issue, even when the person you're trying to talk to isn't necessarily open to listening?

0:50:34.2 JW: Well, again, I think, especially with an issue like that, the more you can take a conversation private, the better. The more you can have a conversation in private, the better, without a phone and a camera with a phone anywhere near you, that's a good place to start. If you're trying to engage, like you saw some of these conversations in the spring between the two sides on the Israel issue in public talking to each other with people with their phones all over the place. That's not a recipe for a sound conversation. It's gotta be private.

0:51:12.9 FG: Joe and I are both very pro-Israel, I am Jewish. I detest anti-Semitism. But I'm also wanting to see the temperature on that come way down because I think everybody has probably a point of view that at least worth being heard if the temperature can come down. I think there have to, has to be ground rules to conversation. And one is we use our ears more. But the other is, as soon as any of this leads to an impediment, to someone else's movement, to someone else's safety, to someone, to indecent, uncivil language where names become involved, you remove the ability to have civil conversation.

0:52:15.0 FG: And so I think, and I'd love to see campuses do more to create that environment. I think we were at Hopkins when a student said to us, I"'d love to start a student's defending democracy, where we model civil behavior and take the issues and find a method to talk to one another." And we both like, "You should do that." I'd love to see that happen on college campuses. Let students lead on this. Let, you have your rights to feel strongly about your issues, but wouldn't it be crazy if, because you all figured out a way to decently talk to one another. You actually showed the adults how to solve the big problems.

0:53:10.5 JC: A bunch of questions have come in. We're talking broadly mostly about gun violence and gun safety. There are lots of issues on which you guys probably disagree, on reproductive rights and abortion, on climate change, on homelessness, on healthcare. How do you guys interact on those kinds of issues?

0:53:31.8 JW: We don't even touch those issues.

0:53:33.1 FG: We did today. [laughter]

0:53:36.4 JW: No. Look, Fred's a good, sincere committed Democrat. I'm a homeless, independent conservative. We do disagree on most issues. We generally haven't engaged on any other issues. We haven't really yet.

0:53:53.9 FG: So, but to your point, so today, and as you know, 'cause we spoke about it earlier, I have a home in North Carolina that is close to Asheville. And that I have no idea at the moment what's happening there because we're not there. What I do know is an epic storm. They say like a once in a thousand-year storm ended up affecting parts of the country that a hurricane is not supposed to affect. And when I walked in and I thought, my first thing that I said to him was, please, please, please don't tell me today that you don't believe in climate change? And so we didn't go too deep, [laughter] but it's a conversation that we'll have on another day.

0:54:47.2 JW: It's an interesting question because we've been very public with this.

0:54:49.5 FG: Yeah.

0:54:50.9 JW: We've mostly just been kind of telling our story. 'Cause it's a story like America needs to get to where Fred and I are now. I guess if I were just to put a bow on this and I know we have a couple more hours left.

0:55:03.2 FG: Oh wow.

0:55:04.5 JW: Look at your look. You looked at her and you said, you told me it wouldn't be that long. America needs to get to where he and I are now. America, most of America is where Fred and I were four or five years ago. And our thing revolved around one issue, but we've been spending most of our time walking students through our journey. 'Cause maybe there are some nuggets in what we did that can help. It's a great question though. We've never really thought about or talked about a lot of other issues. And the other big issue that came up was October 7th, and we're simpatico on that issue.

0:55:46.9 FG: But a few months ago we were in Chicago doing an event, and before the event we had lunch and we got into a discussion...

0:55:53.3 JW: Heated conversation.

0:55:54.3 FG: On assault weapons, and we got heated with each other. And actually, Mike, I think you were there and your wife was there, and you guys, and you and Emily, like, guys, it's just like, calm down. And we did, but we got into a heated conversation. We have a significant difference of opinion, on a lot of... And, but at the end of the day, it's like, you know what? Like we'll continue the conversation when... But, oh, go away this time.

0:56:23.7 JW: That's a good example. In private, at lunch, he and I literally went after each other. We kind of fell off the wagon a little bit.

0:56:32.3 FG: Yeah. [laughter]

0:56:33.4 JW: But we have a rule. No matter how heated things get, we end every conversation with a handshake or a hug. And we even did it then.

0:56:43.0 FG: Listen, it's...

0:56:45.1 JW: By the way, the other lesson, doing this doesn't mean you have to give up what you believe. I'm still a passionate conservative, I'm just not a jackass.

0:56:57.6 FG: But doing this also, you realize you can actually like somebody who you didn't expect to Like. You can respect somebody who you didn't expect to respect. And if you can do that, then together you can find ways to get things done. I'll just tell you, one other thing I've always taught my kids, no matter where you are with anything in life, no matter how hard it seems, there's always one more option. There's always one more thing you can do. And starting conversations with guys like Joe, for me, was that one more thing. Because if I want to create lasting change in this country around reducing gun violence, it has to include not just guys like me who don't own guns and wanna see less gun violence. It has include gun owners. If I want it to be lasting change.

0:58:01.4 JW: The other thing I'll say, and whenever I'm in front of a young audience and I say our democracy won't stand if the American people don't do this. Again, young people's eyes glaze over a little bit. Like I'm old. I really worry about it.

0:58:23.0 FG: Older than me.

0:58:24.2 JW: Older, I worry about our democracy. Young people, I don't think completely agree with or understand what I mean when I say that. And so, I'll say it, A former congressman Nancy Pelosi or Mitch McConnell, or Chuck Schumer or Hakeem Jeffries, they ain't gonna save this thing. They're not gonna save democracy. If Kamala Harris becomes president, she's not gonna save this democracy. If Trump become... Nevermind no matter what, our politicians are not gonna save our democracy. As citizens, we all have a job in this thing, namely to, it's a free country. So, we have to be tolerant, which means we have to accept that there will be people of different sexes, different genders, different gods, different beliefs, different lovers, different everything. If you wanna live here, you have to accept that there are differences. You don't have to agree with the differences, but you have to accept them. You have to be respectful toward people who disagree with you. We've stopped doing this. That's what I mean when I say our democracy is like this. And if we don't begin to do this, I think it will fall.

0:59:49.0 FG: I'm just gonna say one more thing and it's...

0:59:51.1 JW: No, you won't. You'll say more than one thing.

0:59:52.7 FG: It's for the young people in the room. I believe the young people when they tell me they want to be future leaders, that they think they can do it better than us adults. And that you are more tolerant and that you want to go affect government. Where I have a disconnect is when so many of those same young people tell me, "Eh, I don't like all my choices I'm not gonna vote." Okay? And so I will tell you this, this is the election where you get to vote for your right to be a future leader. Because if you don't show up and vote and democracy doesn't go forward, you won't have the chance. And so, vote for the things you believe in, vote for your right to be a future leader, but get out there and vote.

1:00:49.9 JC: Lemme just follow up on that. We have elected officials in the room. And you say there's, there are lots of great organizations out there. Somebody just mentioned Braver Angels that try to get people together. But what is the role of the politicians and what modeling would you like to see politicians do to help us move in this direction?

1:01:10.7 JW: Well, as a former politician, I'd like to see elected officials step out and lead on this, even though the incentives are not there for them to do this. And as a former elected official, I believe that generally elected officials are followers. They're not leaders. I believe that, and I believe that the American people have to lead on this and incentivize elected officials to do this. I don't think it's gonna come from our elected officials.

1:01:44.6 FG: Joe and I...

1:01:45.5 JW: No, we always welcome elected officials who will say, screw it. I don't care if I get reelected, I'm gonna work with the other side. That would be great.

1:01:54.4 FG: There is someone who's trying to do it. A few months ago, and I can't think of his name, the Minnesota governor and a Republican, but he's head of the Governor's Association and he is trying to lead with decency and civility and get the governors to also embrace that and to model it and to show it across their states. And in some places it's having an effect. And in some, it's a challenge. But at least as the head of the Governor's Association, he is making it his core mission to model that during his term, leading all the governors. And I think if we have more people like him, Republican or Democrat, I don't care, but are trying to model how to talk, to be decent, to be civil, you'll see it spread. I also think right now, going back to what you said earlier, politicians are incentivized to do more of this because they know they're only talking to a minority of voters. The more of us who vote and make it clear, we want this, the better they will behave. Sometimes it's not up to the politician. It's up to us to use our voice. And the most powerful way we do that is with our vote.

1:03:11.7 JW: And I will say this pertaining to elected officials. I was in Washington, none of this goes on in Washington. More of this is going...

1:03:22.7 FG: Worse than it's ever been.

1:03:23.1 JW: Yeah. More of this is going on with elected officials at the state and local levels.

1:03:29.1 JC: Why do you think that is? Why is it more at this state?

1:03:31.2 JW: Because I, again, I think it's all performative as a country, we pay more attention to Washington. It's a bigger stage. So, you can get a member of Congress tweeting and texting stupid shit, and it'll get 'em on Fox News or MSNBC.

1:03:49.2 S5: Speaking of action at the state and local level, someone mentioned students demand action and some of the more local initiatives. Do you have any advice for what people can do in their local communities to kind of come together and kind of tune up some of the noise at the national level that is determined by perverse incentives?

1:04:12.2 FG: Listen, I think students have shown their tremendous organizers. And when they organize, you have shown you have power and impact and organize around things like this. I loved when that kid said, let's start a student's defending democracy effort. Okay. Organize around something like that. Model this, show up at any political leader's town hall to show you're interested in democracy. Who goes to political town halls now? Guys do political leaders if gonna have them? It's democracy. We ought to force that. And you know what, Students lead the way. Use your organizing effort to demand your local elected leaders answer to you. You have the power. But the most important thing you can do is never use your voice to say, I'm not gonna vote. Always use your voice and effort to do everything you can to turn out to vote.

1:05:20.5 JW: Get involved in an issue you care about. I tell every young person, what can I do, Joe? What should I do? How can I begin to make a difference? I say forget about the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. Screw that. Get involved in an issue you like, sink your teeth into an issue you care about. Let that be your launching pad. Next.

1:05:42.8 JC: What do you do if you encounter somebody who doesn't wanna respect the other side? I mean, and literally, like, who would just disagree with your whole premise and says I...

1:05:52.1 JW: I love that. I absolutely love that. And I get that all the time, and I bend over backwards to be the nicest, most idiotically nice guy I can be. And it drives me batty. But I do it every day, people go after me, either in person or online. And when I get somebody in person who doesn't like what I'm doing here, I just, I go outta my way to be super nice. Really? What do you mean? I mean, and I'm not sarcastic. You wanna see this country stay together, don't you? I wanna listen to you. I want you to have a great weekend. Come on. I know you love America. I ask questions from the heart and I'm not being a smart ass. And I try to smother them in kindness. I love that.

1:06:46.1 FG: He used to like me fight with everybody on Twitter, and he doesn't now, he's got this whole new approach. I've also changed. And I want to differentiate between real life and Twitter.

1:07:00.8 JC: This is a good distinction.

1:07:00.9 FG: Yeah. So on Twitter, every time somebody did something like that, I also, I got into these arguments, and I had to prove my point and you did the stupid back and forth. And honestly, who even knew if they were a real person? And so, I've stopped doing that. I simply use Twitter now to say what I wanna say. I use it to put out my messaging. I rarely look at comments. I just, it's not worth it. I know what I wanna say, know what I want to communicate, and I use it for that. However, in the real world, when somebody wants to have a conversation or approach, and there's that difference of opinion, you have to find a way to listen more. Sometimes, there's just more power in that. And I've stopped trying to argue with people over being, you're a gun guy, gun grab whatever. And just change the framing a little bit. And what I do is I ask three questions to anybody who I know we have a difference of opinion. And the first one is, can we at least agree there should be less gun violence in America? Can we at least agree that gun violence death rate should be lower? Can we at least agree that if and when gun violence happens, we should do everything we can to make it less deadly? And if in that context you can find at least a calmer place to talk, you may not agree on anything.

1:08:40.7 FG: Most, but yeah. But most people will agree with that.

1:08:44.6 JW: And most people want this, most people wanna have...

1:08:50.3 FG: 80 something percent of America.

1:08:51.7 JW: I'm not even talking about... I agree with everything you just said, but most people do want to stop the hate. Most people on the right wanna stop the hate. Most people on the left wanna stop the hate. They really do. And if you don't believe me, you're in your own bubble. 'Cause, because of my weird political journey, I talk to people across the spectrum every day. Most Americans don't wanna hate the other side. They don't.

1:09:19.9 FG: And by the way.

1:09:20.7 JW: There's hope. They really don't.

1:09:22.4 FG: Talking does not mean you're gonna find agreement, but it's still better to have the conversation because somewhere down the road, maybe there will be an opportunity for some kind of common ground, maybe not. But it's better to have conversation with respect than to do this. This is just not good for the country. It's not helping us. And if we can't find a place back to some decency and civility I'm not as pessimistic as Joe as to what that means. But, but I get it. It's concerning.

1:10:02.7 JC: I wanted ask that. So you're the optimist, you're the pessimist. Is that right?

1:10:07.3 JW: Yes. That's right.

1:10:08.0 JC: When you say that, what do you mean? 'Cause You've said that three times now, what are you optimistic with or Pessimistic with?

1:10:12.5 JW: Here's what I mean. And I said this when I went to Congress 10 years ago. This now 248-year-old experiment in democracy, I don't know whether we can keep it together. That's what I mean by being a pessimist. I don't think, and if I were sitting in front of you six years ago, I would've said, I don't believe we can keep together as one country. I mean that. Right Now, if you ask me that question, I really don't know. I worry that we can't. I believe that.

1:10:46.7 JC: And you're more optimistic about that.

1:10:48.1 FG: And I will tell you why. 'Cause I have traveled this country for the past six and a half years. Every state, although this is my first time in Michigan, it's still just strange. I know, right? But I've been everywhere else. And everywhere I've gone, red or blue, I meet people who love their families. I meet people who love the country. I meet people who, it doesn't matter where they stand on guns, they agree we can be better. And so, as long as I keep meeting every day Americans across the country, it gives me hope. And I will tell you, in 2018 when Jamie was killed, I set out on a mission to change the politics on this issue. And in that election that year, we fired 30 something Congressmen who were NRA A rated. And we flipped the house. And in the following election, we elected Joe Biden and a Senate that would do something about gun violence. And I am optimistic because people voted, we got stuff done and it's saving lives.

1:12:07.6 JW: Yeah, but this Fred, I...

1:12:09.4 FG: I get it. It's...

1:12:10.1 JW: I agree. But that's just a piece.

1:12:14.4 FG: If people vote, I have hope.

1:12:16.3 JW: Most of America right now is where Fred and I were four or five years ago, period. And unless that changes, this country will not stay together. Period. That's what I believe.

1:12:30.3 FG: This vote will either prove that to be true or can start a process of going forward.

1:12:35.4 JW: No, no. I love you, my brother, but I completely disagree with. It does not matter who wins in November. And don't say vote again. Everybody in this room knows we should vote and everybody in this room's gonna vote. This is bigger than that. I know who I want to win in November. I know who you want to win in November. The problem in this country is bigger than who will occupy the White House in January.

1:13:02.2 FG: There is no question. But there is no question. However, it's gonna be a defining point. And if the majority of Americans show up and vote and it's clear they've had enough of this, that is going to start being obvious. For those who have been elected.

1:13:20.3 JW: But Fred, agreed. And now we're modeling.

1:13:22.6 FG: And change can happen.

1:13:23.3 JW: We're modeling now. 'Cause We're about to start throwing hands at each other.

[laughter]

1:13:28.1 FG: Nah.

1:13:30.0 JW: Plenty of people who will vote for both candidates despise the other side. The people who will vote for the candidate you want to win, most of those people despise the other side. Let me finish. I want that candidate to win too. And if that candidate wins, most of the people who will have sent her to office despise the other side. If that candidate wins, most of those people despise the other side. That's our problem.

1:14:03.0 FG: So we are, when we do these things, we work really hard to be nonpolitical. And I'm working really hard to be non-Political.

1:14:13.5 JW: Nonpartisan.

1:14:14.0 FG: Nonpartisan.

1:14:14.2 JW: Nonpartisan.

1:14:15.4 JC: We're political.

1:14:15.7 FG: So yeah, nonpartisan. And I'm gonna, so I'm gonna work really hard to be non-partisan in the way I answer this. I would say the hate is far more on, well I don't wanna say that, but I'll just say this. I think...

1:14:39.2 JW: Says someone from his side.

1:14:40.0 FG: So I think, again, rather than blaming sides, 'cause we're gonna be nonpartisan.

1:14:46.4 JW: Don't.

1:14:46.9 FG: What I'm gonna say is this, and I believe this, if the majority of people vote and they vote and it's clear they want decency and civility, then what I do believe is you are going to see those who are elected, not immediately, but those who are elected, even those who maybe we saw as part of the problem, start to reflect what the majority of a voters want. If we actually show up and vote, if we don't show up and vote, we're giving them no reason to behave differently. That was about as non-partisan as that could be.

1:15:23.0 JW: Well, there's, and I say this coming from the right, 'cause I am from the right and I'm still of the right, but I can say this as somebody now in the middle who's an independent homeless dude, there is hate on both sides. I will acknowledge that the hate on my side on the right is louder now and is more susceptible to violence. And I've said that and I believe that. But the hate on the other side for that side is there in big, big numbers too. And it's gonna be a problem no matter who wins in November. And all I'm saying we're on the same page, we want the same outcome in November. But damn it, this country's problems will not be solved by who wins in November. No, no. The problems in this country are bigger and they involve us.

1:16:25.6 FG: He didn't take his pills. Did he?

1:16:26.0 JW: Not, I had too much coffee today. Not who you are voting for. You are the problem. You are the problem, Daniel. I'm the problem. It's us. We gotta do what's expected of us. And we can't survive if we hate our fellow citizens. You can laugh at that. 'Cause Here's a crazy former congressman who's yelling and he's entertaining, but damn it, I mean it and you better internalize it. Get outta your bubbles and internalize it. We live in a country right now with too damn much hate because there's too little understanding. That's why he and I are doing what we're doing to try to model how to do this so the two sides can at least begin to understand each other.

1:17:20.8 FG: And I did take my meds today, so I'm gonna...

1:17:24.3 JW: Actually that's a true story.

1:17:26.4 FG: That I took meds?

1:17:27.5 JW: No, I drove... No. Now that I think about it, I drove from DC yesterday. I packed myself, I left half of my stuff at home. I forgot my pills.

1:17:40.1 FG: You did?

1:17:41.5 JW: I did.

1:17:42.2 FG: So normally, just so you all know, his wife normally travels with him everywhere. And when I saw he was alone today.

1:17:46.7 JW: I forgot my stuff.

1:17:47.8 FG: Because by the way, they had a grandchild. So she's back with the baby. But when I saw he was by himself today, I said, "Oh my God, you must be a mess." 'Cause I know she takes care of everything. So...

1:18:00.3 JW: I forgot my socks, I forgot my toiletries and I forgot my medication. That's right.

1:18:07.1 FG: So see, so...

1:18:08.8 JW: I apologize. Catherine, I apologize.

1:18:11.6 FG: So what, listen, I do wanna say something though. 'Cause This country, 'cause you are right. But the reason why I'm also more hopeful. I think the country is exhausted by the toxicity. I think this country is exhausted by the hate. And I think this country is ready to move on to something different. And we need to send a powerful message to those who are gonna be elected to serve us. That we want that. 'Cause We are exhausted by it.

1:18:43.9 JC: I think that's a pretty good spot to land on. So thank you very much. That was wonderful. Appreciate it.

[applause]

1:18:55.5 JW: Are we done? I'm done. I'm done. I've had enough.

1:18:58.8 JC: And if anyone ever has more extra...

1:19:00.8 JW: No more coffee. Time for some tequila, no more coffee. Thank you everybody. Thank you for coming. Thank you.

1:19:07.0 FG: Thank you.