US/Brazil Bromance: What's in Store for Us?

 WELCOME, EVERYBODY.

 I'M REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE THIS 

 OPPORTUNITY TO PARTNER WITH THE

 AMERICAN ACADEMY OF DIPLOMACY, 

 WITH LIVE REPORTING OF AMERICAN

 DIPLOMAT ON THE THEME OF 

 "US/BRAZIL BROMANCE: WHAT'S IN 

 STORE FOR US?".

 WE ARE JOINED BY LAURA BENNETT 

 WHO IS A PRODUCER AND HOST OF 

 AMERICAN DIPLOMAT AND ON THE 

 FAR END AMBASSADOR THOMAS 

 SHANNON AND AMBASSADOR PETER 

 ROMERO WHO IS A 25 YEAR VETERAN

 OF THE FOREIGN SERVICE WHO 

 SERVED MOST RECENTLY AS 

 ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE 

 WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

 BEFORE THAT AS DEPUTY ASSISTANT

 SECRETARY AND AS AMBASSADOR TO 

 ECUADOR.

 HE WAS CHARGE D'AFFAIRES IN EL 

 SALVADOR AND ONE OF THE 

 ARCHITECTS AND INSTIGATORS OF 

 PLANNED COLOMBIA.

 I WILL TURN IT OVER TO 

 AMBASSADOR ROMERO WHO WILL TAKE

 IT OVER FROM THERE.

Ambassador Romero: WELCOME 

 TO AMERICAN DIPLOMAT, REAL 

 STORIES BEHIND THE NEWS.

 I AM ROMERO AND WITH ME IS -- 

LAURA BENNETT.

Ambassador Romero: I WANT TO

 REMIND PEOPLE WE HAVE ONE OF 

 THESE STILL PHOTOS ON OUR 

 WEBSITE WHICH FEATURES -- 

 SORRY.

 WHICH FEATURES OUR THREE 

 GOLDENDOODLE DOGS AT THE 

 MICROPHONE AND IT WASN'T JUST 

 WHIMSY.

 THE REASON WE WERE TOGETHER, 

 LAURA AND I MET WALKING OUR 

 DOGS IN EASTON MART -- MARYLAND

 AND THE THIRD DOODLE, SANTOS, 

 IS THE PET OF THE OWNER OF OUR 

 STUDIOS IN WASHINGTON SO PLEASE

 CHECK THAT OUT IF YOU HAVEN'T 

 ALREADY.

Laura: THEY ARE CUTE.

Ambassador Romero: THEY ARE 

 DOGS.

 WE HAVE A SPECIAL TREAT TODAY 

 FOR OUR LISTENERS, WE ARE 

 PLEASED TO BE COMING TO YOU 

 FROM THE GERALD FORD SCHOOL OF 

 PUBLIC DIPLOMACY AT THE 

 UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.

 OUR VISIT IS SPONSORED BY THE 

 WISER DIPLOMATIC CENTER AND IT 

 IS PART OF A SERIES WE HAVE 

 ONGOING IN OUR PODCAST CALLED 

 IS IT HAPPENING HERE?

 WE HAVE 80 PODCASTS, WE'VE BEEN

 IN BUSINESS FOR 15 MONTHS AND I

 THINK YOU WILL FIND SOME VERY 

 INTERESTING THINGS AS IT 

 RELATES TO FIRST-PERSON STORIES

 OF OUR DIPLOMATS IN PRACTICE 

 OVERSEAS.

 IS IT HAPPENING HERE IS A 

 SERIES WE RUN FROM TIME TO 

 TIME.

 WE LOOKED AT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S 

 RUSSIA, ERDOGAN'S TURKEY, 

 CHAVEZ'S VENEZUELA AND WE WANT 

 TO LOOK AT JAIR BOLSONARO'S 

 BRAZIL AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR 

 US.

 I'M PLEASED TO WELCOME THE MOST

 INFORMED DIPLOMATS WE COULD 

 BRING TO THIS DISCUSSION.

 TO MY LEFT IS TOM SHANNON, HEAD

 OF 33 OR 34?

 341/2, 34.5 YEAR CAREER IN 

 FOREIGN SERVICE.

 HE WAS THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY 

 FOR THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE 

 AFFAIRS AND AMBASSADOR FOR 

 BRAZIL FROM 2010-2013 AND WE 

 WILL PICK HIS BRAIN ABOUT THAT.

 GO AND ALSO THE NUMBER 3 PERSON

 IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, 

 UNDERSECRETARY FOR POLITICAL 

 AFFAIRS, TO INCLUDE THE COUNCIL

 OF THE DEPARTMENT FOR A WILD.

 WE ARE PLEASED TO HAVE WITH US 

 AMBASSADOR MELVIN, PROFESSOR OF

 THE GERALD FORD SCHOOL OF 

 PUBLIC POLICY.

 HE TAUGHT FOR EIGHT YEARS AS 

 PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC 

 ADMINISTRATION IN INTERNATIONAL

 AFFAIRS AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

 HE WAS ELECTED BY A VOTE OF THE

 UNITED NATIONS ECONOMIC AND 

 SOCIAL COUNCIL TO A SEAT ON THE

 INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS CONTROL

 BOARD, AN INDEPENDENT BODY OF 

 EXPERTS RESPONSIBLE FOR 

 MONITORING AND PROMOTING 

 STANDARDS OF DRUG CONTROL 

 ESTABLISHED BY INTERNATIONAL 

 TREATIES.

 DURING HIS 35 YEAR CAREER IN 

 THE FOREIGN SERVICE AS A US 

 DIPLOMAT HE WAS AMBASSADOR TO 

 BRAZIL, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF 

 STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL 

 NARCOTICS, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY 

 OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT, 

 AMBASSADOR TO BULGARIA, THE 

 RECIPIENT OF SEVERAL 

 MERITORIOUS AWARDS AND 

 ESTABLISHED HONOR AWARDS.

 WELCOME.

THANKS FOR COMING TO THE 

 FORD SCHOOL.

Laura: YOU KNOW SO MUCH.

 AMERICAN DIPLOMAT IS A PROJECT 

 OF THE COX FOUNDATION IN 

 PARTNERSHIP WITH THE AMERICAN 

 ACADEMY OF DIPLOMACY.

 WE ARE TALKING.

Ambassador Romero: WHAT I 

 WOULD REALLY LIKE TO DO IS 

 SCROLL BACK IN TIME.

 IT WASN'T BUT 5 OR 6 YEARS AGO 

 THAT THE OLD ADAGE OF BRAZIL IS

 THE COUNTRY OF THE FUTURE AND 

 ALWAYS WILL BE SEEMED TO BE 

 OUTDATED, LOOKED LIKE IT WAS 

 BRAZIL'S TIME.

 THEY WERE A LEADER IN THE 

 REGION IF NOT INTERNATIONALLY, 

 THEY HAD BECOME MEMBERS OF THE 

 BRICK COUNTRIES, BRAZIL, 

 RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA AND, SOME 

 PEOPLE, SOUTH AFRICA.

 A COUNTERWEIGHT TO US 

 INFLUENCE.

 THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY, IT WAS 

 SUPPOSED TO BE THE MERGING 

 GREAT POWERS.

 WEISER DIPLOMACY CENTER 

 DIPLOMATICALLY AS WELL AS 

 ECONOMICALLY.

Ambassador Romero: THE 

 LARGEST OIL AND GAS RESERVES IN

 THE WORLD FOUND OFF THE COAST, 

 INCREDIBLE PRODUCTION OF 

 ETHANOL, EXPORT OF ETHANOL 

 REGIONALLY.

 IT REALLY LOOKED -- GROWTH 

 RATES WHICH WERE THROUGH THE 

 CEILING.

 IT LOOKED LIKE BRAZIL'S TIME 

 HAD FINALLY COME.

 TOM?

 WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG?

Guest: I LEFT BEFORE IT ALL 

 CAME UNDONE.

 LET ME START BY SAYING WHAT A 

 PLEASURE IT IS TO BE HERE, 

 ESPECIALLY TO BE WITH MISTER 

 LIVE IN SKI WHO WAS AN ICON IN 

 THE FOREIGN SERVICE WHO I 

 ADMIRED GREATLY.

 MORE IMPORTANTLY WHEN I WAS 

 AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL IN THE 

 ENTRYWAY TO THE AMBASSADOR'S 

 OFFICE AS YOU WALK INTO THE 

 LARGER SWEET, ALL OF THE FORMER

 AMBASSADOR'S PHOTOGRAPHS ARE 

 HANGING ON THE WALL SO EVERY 

 DAY I CAME TO WORK AND LEFT 

 WORK, HE LOOKED AT ME AND ASKED

 ME WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR YOUR 

 COUNTRY TODAY?

 SOMETIMES I HAD A GOOD ANSWER 

 AND SOMETIMES I DIDN'T.

Ambassador Romero: THIS WAS 

 BEFORE MAKE AMERICA GREAT 

 AGAIN.

Guest: I KNEW SOMETHING WAS 

 ABOUT TO HAPPEN IN BRAZIL.

 IN SUMMER OF 2013, WHEN AT THE 

 CONFEDERATION CUP OPENER IN 

 WHICH BRAZIL WAS PLAYING JAPAN,

 A LEAD UP TO THE WORLD CUP AND 

 BRAZIL WAS THE HOST AND THE 

 OLYMPICS, IT WAS GOING TO BE A 

 SERIES OF GLOBAL SPORTING 

 EVENTS THAT WOULD CEMENT 

 BRAZIL'S STATURE GLOBALLY AS A 

 SOFT POWER THAT HAD EMERGED AS 

 A GLOBAL POWER, MAYBE ONE OF 

 THE FIRST.

 AS THE TEAMS CAME ONTO THE 

 FIELD AND OTHER THAN HEAD OF 

 FEE FOR --FIFA PREPARED FOR 

 SPEECH, SHE WAS THE PRESIDENT 

 OF THE TIME, EVERYONE IN THE 

 STADIUM STARTED WHISTLING.

 WHISTLING IN BRAZIL IS LIKE 

 BLUEIING.

 BLUEIIOIOING.

 I REMEMBER THINKING SOMETHING 

 IS HAPPENING, WITH A LARGELY 

 MIDDLE-CLASS CROWD, LARGELY A 

 CROWD FROM BRASÍLIA, GOVERNMENT

 SAID, RESPONDING IN THIS 

 FASHION.

 IT WAS STRIKING.

 VERY SOON AFTER THAT, EVEN 

 BEFORE THAT HAD STARTED, THE 

 POLITICAL REPERCUSSIONS OF 

 DEMONSTRATIONS HAD TAKEN PLACE 

 THROUGH MUCH OF THE SUMMER OF 

 2013.

DID THEY START WITH THE 

 PROTEST ON THE AMOUNT OF MONEY 

 THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT WAS 

 SPENDING ON OLYMPIC FACILITIES 

 AND WORLD CUP FACILITIES?

IT STARTS WITH A HIKE IN BUS

 FARE.

 A FAIRLY SMALL HIKE.

 BUT IT HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON THE

 CITIZENS WHO TRAVELED BY BUS.

 THEY STARTED DEMONSTRATING BUT 

 IT CAUGHT FIRE AND ROLLED 

 ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

 SOME OF IT WAS LINKED TO 

 SPENDING ON STADIUMS BUT IT WAS

 MOSTLY FOCUSED ON CONCERN ABOUT

 HIGH TAX RATES AND LOW SERVICE 

 PROVISIONS.

 THIS IS WHAT GENERATES IT, WHAT

 BEGINS IT.

 THIS IS COMBINED WITH A 

 POLITICAL CRISIS WHICH LEADS TO

 IMPEACHMENT AND EFFECTIVELY THE

 COLLAPSE OF BRAZIL'S POLITICAL 

 CLASS AND OPENS THE SPACE WE 

 SAW WITH THE ELECTION OF JAIR 

 BOLSONARO.

DID YOU FORESEE THIS 

 HAPPENING IN BRAZIL?

 THERE'S A CERTAIN NOSTALGIA IN 

 BRAZIL EVEN MORE SO TODAY, THE 

 MILITARY JUNTA RAN THE COUNTRY,

 DID YOU FEEL ANY OF THAT, THEY 

 FELT THE GOVERNMENT HAD GONE 

 TOO FAR.

GO WAY BACK, AND WHAT WAS ON

 THE MOUTH OF THE AMAZON RIVER 

 FOR A COUPLE YEARS AND 

 TRANSFERRED TO BRASÍLIA AS WE 

 WERE MOVING THE EMBASSY SO I 

 HAD THAT EXPERIENCE AND DID 

 WHAT I MOSTLY WANTED TO DO WITH

 SOVIET AFFAIRS, EASTERN EUROPE 

 AND WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE 

 NAMED AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL IN 

 THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION IN 

 1994.

 I SERVED FOR FOUR YEARS THERE 

 BECAUSE WE HAD A SUCCESSION OF 

 REPLACEMENTS FOR ME WHO DROPPED

 OUT OR -- BRIAN ATWOOD HAD BEEN

 DIRECTOR OF THE AGENCY FOR 

 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, WAS 

 VERY WELL-QUALIFIED TO BE 

 AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL AND WAS 

 HELD UP ESSENTIALLY BY JESSE 

 HELMS AT THE TIME BECAUSE HE 

 HAD BEEN AGAINST BRINGING USAID

 INTO THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

 REMEMBER USAI WAS, THE AGENCY 

 FOR ARMS CONTROL AND 

 DISARMAMENT.

 I HAD A LONG HISTORY WITH 

 BRAZIL AND RETAINED AN INTEREST

 WHEN I WAS ASSISTANT SECRETARY 

 FOR INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS 

 BECAUSE BRAZIL BECAME A TRANSIT

 COUNTRY FOR DRUGS COMING OUT OF

 COLOMBIA, IN THAT AREA OF THE 

 ANDES.

 YOU REMEMBER THAT VERY WELL 

 BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE.

 MY SENSE, I WAS FORTUNATE TO BE

 THERE AT A TIME WHEN THINGS 

 CHANGED FOR THE POSITIVE IN 

 BRAZIL.

 WHEN I GOT TO BRAZIL IN JUNE 

 RIGHT BEFORE 4 JULY, JUNE 1994,

 INFLATION WAS RUNNING AT 40% A 

 MONTH.

 IF YOU WERE PAID BY A SALARY 

 YOU HAD TO SPEND IT RIGHT AWAY.

 IF YOU DIDN'T SPEND IT AT THE 

 END OF THE MONTH, THE MONEY WAS

 40%.

 I REMEMBER CLEARLY THE STORY 

 WHERE WE WERE TRYING, WE WERE 

 GOING TO BUY THINGS, IN THE 

 LOCAL MARKET, I WENT OVER, WE 

 HAD A LITTLE BANK, SMALL 

 BANKING FACILITY ON EMBASSY 

 GROUNDS AND GAVE ME A SACK OF 

 MONEY.

 I NEEDED A COUPLE THOUSAND 

 DOLLARS.

 IT WAS LITERALLY A SACK OF 

 MONEY.

 AS I WAS WALKING ACROSS THE LOT

 I WAS THINKING TO MYSELF AS I 

 WALK ACROSS THIS LOT THIS MONEY

 IS GETTING TO BE WORTHLESS.

 I CALLED MY WIFE AND SAID I AM 

 SENDING OUT A SACK OF MONEY, WE

 HAVE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE 

 EMBASSY WHO DID THE FOURTH OF 

 JULY PARTY.

 HAVE THEM BUY EVERYTHING RIGHT 

 AWAY TODAY BECAUSE IT STEADILY 

 GOES DOWN.

 PRESIDENT CARDOZA WHO HAD BEEN 

 FINANCE MINISTER UNDER THAT 

 GOVERNMENT WAS ELECTED AND 

 STOPPED EVEN BEFORE WITH HIS 

 PLAN, STOPPED INFLATION IN ITS 

 TRACKS.

 THE MIDDLE CLASS BEGAN TO GROW,

 INFLATION WAS ESSENTIALLY KEPT 

 GOING DOWN WHICH IS THE BIGGEST

 THING IN BRAZIL FOR THE WORKERS

 COULDN'T PLAY THE OVERNIGHT 

 BANK RATES, TO PLAY THE MONEY 

 MARKET.

 IT WAS A PERIOD WHEN THINGS 

 TOOK OFF.

 IF YOU LOOK AT THAT PERIOD OF 

 TIME, IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF ME 

 BUT THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT.

IT IS TOM'S FAULT.

WHEN I LEFT, THINGS WERE 

 REALLY MOVING.

 I REMEMBER OUR RESIDENCE 

 WITHOUT A LITTLE FURTHER OUT OF

 TOWN AND THERE WERE EVEN 

 MONKEYS IN THE TREES.

 A FEW MONTHS INTO THE PLAN ALL 

 OF A SUDDEN THE HIGHWAY THAT 

 WENT ACROSS OUR PROPERTY WAS 

 JAMMED WITH CARS BECAUSE 

 MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE THAT LIVED 

 IN THE SUBURBS OF OLD TOWNS 

 WHERE THE WORKERS BEGAN TO 

 BUILD BRASÍLIA WERE BUYING 

 CARS, GOT JAMMED UP, MONKEYS 

 WENT AWAY, THEY DON'T LIKE 

 FUMES, THEY DON'T LIKE NOISE.

 THAT WAS NEGATIVE.

 THE POSITIVE WAS YOU GOT THE 

 MIDDLE-CLASS PARTICIPATING IN 

 THE ECONOMY AND CARDOZA WAS 

 WILDLY POPULAR.

 CERTAIN THINGS HE COULDN'T GET 

 THROUGH CONGRESS BUT THAT 

 HAPPENS WITH EVERY -- 

HE WAS ALSO ONE OF THE FIRST

 THINKERS AND MOVERS BEHIND THE 

 THIRD WAVE WHICH CLINTON, TONY 

 BLAIR -- 

BASICALLY A THIRD WAVE 

 BETWEEN NAKED CAPITALISM AND 

 SOCIALISM.

 KIND OF WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING 

 TODAY NOT VERY EFFECTIVELY, 

 DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM TODAY IN 

 TERMS OF WHERE DOES THE COUNTRY

 LIE AT ANY TIME IN TERMS OF 

 LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD SO 

 PEOPLE CAN COMPETE IN THIS SORT

 OF THING.

 THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS 25

 YEARS AGO.

 WEISER DIPLOMACY CENTER THERE 

 WERE MORE SOCIAL PROGRAMS AT 

 THIS TIME?

THE SOCIAL PROGRAMS WERE 

 PARTICULARLY FAMILIA WHICH WAS 

 LULA'S PLAN FOR POOR FAMILIES.

 IT DID COME IN UNTIL LULA WAS 

 ELECTED SO -- MOSTLY PEOPLE 

 ROSE BECAUSE THE ECONOMY, 

 RISING SEA CELLS -- RISES ALL 

 BOATS.

 YOU CONCEDE IN PLACES LIKE SAN 

 PABLO, RIO, THE BIG CITIES, 

 EVEN SMALLER CITIES THAT COME 

 IN.

 THE AGRO BUSINESS WAS HUGE IN 

 BRAZIL COMPETING WITH THE 

 UNITED STATES.

 SO THAT WAS A PERIOD WHEN I HAD

 HOPED FOR BRAZIL.

 I THOUGHT IT WOULD GO WELL BUT 

 REMEMBER AT THE END OF THE 

 CARDOZA PERIOD, WHAT CROPS UP?

 THE BIGGEST PROBLEM BRAZIL HAS,

 CORRUPTION.

IT WASN'T PART OF IT.

AT THE END OF THE CARDOZA 

 PERIOD HE SERVED EIGHT YEARS.

 LOOKING AT IT NOW THERE WERE 

 MANY SCANDALS.

 THESE THINGS BEGAN, WHERE 

 GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TOOK 

 ADVANTAGE OF THEIR POSITION, 

 THAT IS A BIG ISSUE.

 TOM KNOWS THIS AS WELL.

 A BIG ISSUE WITH BRAZIL IS 

 CORRUPTION.

 DO PEOPLE HAVE TRUST IN THE 

 GOVERNMENT WHEN THEY SEE MONEY 

 IS BEING SKIMMED OFF AND FEELS 

 ARE MADE?

IT USED TO BE LATIN AMERICA 

 THE PUBLIC RESPONSE TO A LOT OF

 ALLEGATIONS OF CORRUPTION BY 

 OFFICIALS WAS WHY DIDN'T I GET 

 MY PIECE?

 NOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED 

 DRAMATICALLY.

 WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS PERIOD?

 YOU WERE THERE DURING WHAT 

 WOULD CONSTITUTE THE HEYDAY OF 

 LULA.

 WHAT HAPPENED?

 YOU HAD THE FAMILIA, PEOPLE 

 LIFTED OUT OF POVERTY, SOME 

 GREAT SOCIAL ENGINEERING GOING 

 ON AND THE ECONOMY IS BORING, 

 AND WHAT MEL WAS TALKING ABOUT,

 BUT WHAT HAPPENED?

TELL US WHO LULA IS AND CAN 

 YOU HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT 

 HAPPENED IN THE PERSPECTIVE OF 

 THE PEOPLE OF THE COUNTRY?

 WHAT IS DIFFERENT FOR THE 

 AVERAGE JOE?

 'S ENVIRONMENT YET?

 WHAT IS CHANGING THEIR 

 ATTITUDES AND WHAT IS CAUSING 

 IT?

A POLITICAL LEADER, A TRADE 

 UNIONIST AND POLITICAL LEADER, 

 WAS EVENTUALLY ELECTED 

 PRESIDENT IN THE AFTERMATH, IS 

 ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF 

 ECONOMIC STABILITY THAT WAS 

 CREATED, WAS ABLE TO BUILD IN A

 SOCIAL OUTREACH PROGRAM, THE 

 POOREST PEOPLE IN BRAZIL.

 IT MEANS THE FAMILY BASKET, IN 

 ORDER TO BUY WHAT WAS NECESSARY

 AND IT IS UNDER INNOVATIVE 

 PROGRAM, MONEY IS PAID NOT TO 

 HEAD -- HEADS OF HOUSEHOLD BUT 

 2 WOMEN.

 THE ASSUMPTION IS THEY WILL 

 SPEND THE MONEY RESPONSIBLY AND

 MEN WILL NOT.

WHEN YOU ASK WHY THERE ARE 

 NO STRONG WOMEN IT IS BECAUSE 

 THEY ARE JUST TOO SENSIBLE 

 RATHER THAN STRONG MEN.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE IS AS

 THE LULA ADMINISTRATION BEGINS 

 TO ADDRESS EXTREME POVERTY IN 

 BRAZIL, A MIDDLE-CLASS IS 

 BUILDING AND AT ONE POINT IT 

 REACHES 100 MILLION PEOPLE 

 WHICH IS HALF OF BRAZIL'S 

 POPULATION AND THIS HAS A HUGE 

 IMPACT ON BRAZIL, A COUNTRY 

 WHICH HISTORICALLY WAS DEFINED 

 BY INEQUALITY, THE DIFFERENCE 

 BETWEEN THE WEALTHY AND THE 

 POOR, NOW HAS A CENTER OF THE 

 MIDDLE CLASS, STILL HAS GREAT 

 ANY QUALITY BUT THE 

 MIDDLE-CLASS CREATE STABILITY 

 AND PREDICTABILITY AND CREATES 

 A CONSUMER MARKET THAT DID NOT 

 EXIST PREVIOUSLY AND THIS HELPS

 DRIVE THE ECONOMY.

 WHAT IS STRIKING ABOUT THE 

 MIDDLE-CLASS IS THEY BELIEVE 

 THEY ACHIEVED THEIR ECONOMIC 

 WELL-BEING THROUGH THEIR OWN 

 HARD WORK AND NOT NECESSARILY 

 THROUGH GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS.

 THEY BECOME DEMANDING OF A 

 GOVERNMENT AS OPPOSED TO 

 ADORNED WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND

 THIS IS WHERE THE ISSUES OF 

 HIGH CRIME RATES, CORRUPTION 

 AND ECONOMIC SLOWDOWN HAVE A 

 HUGE POLITICAL IMPACT BECAUSE 

 THEY CREATE AND GENERATE A 

 GROUP OF NOW POLITICALLY ACTIVE

 BRAZILIANS, A MIDDLE-CLASS WHO 

 HAVE NO POLITICAL VOICE, NO 

 POLITICAL PARTY OR POLITICAL 

 CANDIDATE TO REPRESENT HIM AND 

 THE RESULT IS A FOCUS BY THE 

 MIDDLE-CLASS ON WHAT THEY 

 CONSIDER TO BE THE INABILITY OF

 GOVERNMENT TO ADDRESS THE 

 PROBLEMS MOST IMPORTANT TO THEM

 AND A SIGNIFICANT FOCUS ON 

 CORRUPTION AND THIS LEADS TO 

 THE INVESTIGATIONS IN THE 

 AFTERMATH OF A SIGNIFICANT 

 SCANDAL, THE CAR WASH SCANDAL 

 THAT LEADS TO THE TAKEDOWN OF 

 THE GOVERNMENT AND THE COLLAPSE

 OF BRAZIL'S POLITICAL CLASS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT BRAZIL, AND

 LULA BRINGS THESE PEOPLE 

 THROUGH HIS PROGRAMS, THE 

 MIDDLE-CLASS IS STRENGTHENED 

 WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE ALL TRIED

 TO DO AS DIPLOMATS, DO WHAT WE 

 COULD TO STRENGTHEN 

 MIDDLE-CLASS.

 INSTEAD OF BEING SUBSERVIENT 

 AND ETERNALLY THANKFUL TO A 

 GOVERNMENT THAT DOES THAT, AS 

 HAS HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA RIGHT

 NEXT DOOR, YOU HAVE A CORE 

 GROUP WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY 

 DWINDLING LATELY THAT STUCK 

 WITH CHAVEZ AND 

Ambassador Romero: MADURO 

 LIKE DECENT EDUCATION AND 

 MEDICAL CARE.

 THEY NEVER HAD THIS.

 NOW THEY'VE GOT IT.

 THE RESULTS IS THEY ARE SO 

 THANKFUL THEY PUT THEMSELVES 

 SUBSERVIENT TO A GOVERNMENT 

 THAT EVERYDAY BECOMES MORE 

 CORRUPT.

 WHY DIDN'T THAT HAPPEN IN 

 BRAZIL?

DEMOCRACY HAS DEEP ROOTS IN 

 BRAZIL AND BRAZIL'S 

 CONSTITUTION IS A PROFOUND 

 INSTRUMENT OF POLITICAL 

 ORDERING.

 IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND 

 PRESIDENT LULA IS VERY POPULAR 

 IN BRAZIL.

UNDER HOUSE ARREST.

HE IS INCARCERATED BUT HE 

 WAS PREVENTED FROM RUNNING IN 

 THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION 

 BY DECISIONS BY THE COURTS BUT 

 SOME BELIEVE IF HE HAD RUN HE 

 WOULD HAVE WON.

 BUT INDEPENDENT OF THAT IT IS 

 IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND 

 SOMETHING ABOUT BRAZIL.

 BRAZIL HAS BECOME A COUNTRY OF 

 THE FUTURE, CERTAINLY A COUNTRY

 OF THE PRESENT, A REMARKABLE 

 PLACEMENT DURING MY TIME THERE 

 I SAW COUNTRY WHICH HAD USED 

 DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES IN ITS 

 CONSTITUTION TO TRANSFORM 

 BRAZIL AS A COUNTRY.

 WHEN I ARRIVED IN BRAZIL THE 

 FIRST TIME, I SERVED 7 YEARS OF

 MY PROFESSIONAL CAREER IN 

 BRAZIL.

 WHEN I ARRIVED FOR THE FIRST 

 TIME IN 1989 I WAS -- BRAZIL 

 WAS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FROM 

 WHEN I RETURNED IN 2010.

 WE HAD THE SAME BOUNDARIES, THE

 SAME LANGUAGE BUT IT HAD GONE 

 THROUGH A SOCIAL 

 TRANSFORMATION.

 SOME WAS BUILDING UP THE 

 MIDDLE-CLASS AND SOME OF IT WAS

 ADDRESSING EXTREME POVERTY BUT 

 A LOT WAS ABOUT BUILDING 

 INFRASTRUCTURE.

 IN TERMS OF WHAT IT WAS ABLE TO

 DO IN BUILDING A COUNTRY THAT 

 WAS ABLE TO EXPAND ACROSS THE 

 ENTIRETY OF ITS NATIONAL 

 TERRITORY IT HAD DONE 

 REMARKABLE THINGS.

 A COUNTRY WHICH WAS EFFECTIVELY

 THE COUNTRY OF THE COAST, SWUNG

 INTO BECOMING COUNTRY OF THE 

 AMAZON AND THE WEST AND EMERGED

 AS ONE OF THE LARGEST FOOD 

 PRODUCERS AND FOOD EXPORTERS, 

 THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF 

 SUSTAINABLE RENEWABLE ENERGY.

 IT WAS A COMFORTING REMARKABLE 

 THINGS AND THESE THINGS ARE 

 STILL IN PLACE.

 WHAT IS STRIKING ABOUT THE 

 POLITICAL CRISIS THAT BRAZIL 

 LIVED THROUGH, IMAGINE THIS IN 

 THE UNITED STATES, THE 

 PRESIDENT IS IMPEACHED, HIS 

 PREDECESSOR IS ARRESTED AND 

 CHARGED WITH CRIMES, HIS 

 SUCCESSOR WOULD BE CHARGED WITH

 CRIMES.

 THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IS 

 REMOVED FROM OFFICE, SENATE 

 MAJORITY LEADER IS ARRESTED AND

 IMPRISONED AND THE HEAD OF 

 APPLE, BOEING AND FORD ARE ALL 

 ARRESTED.

 THAT HAPPENED IN BRAZIL BUT 

 BRAZILIANS CLUNG TO THEIR 

 DEMOCRATIC PURPOSE AND THEY 

 BELIEVED THEIR INSTITUTIONS 

 COULD ACCOMPLISH, AND IN MANY 

 WAYS THIS IS THE UNTOLD STORY 

 OF BRAZIL.

 ESPECIALLY IN THE NATIONAL 

 MEDIA PEOPLE WONDER, IS JAIR 

 BOLSONARO A THREAT TO 

 DEMOCRACY?

 INDEPENDENT OF HIS FUTURE, THIS

 REPRESENTS THE BRAZILIAN 

 PEOPLE'S COMMITMENT TO 

 DEMOCRACY AND INSISTENCE THEIR 

 LEADERS BE ACCOUNTABLE TO 

 VOTERS AND ULTIMATELY RESPOND 

 TO WHAT THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE 

 WANT TO.

I REMEMBER AN INCIDENT OF 

 CORRUPTION BEFORE PRESIDENT 

 CLINTON CAME TO BRAZIL, 

 REMEMBER THE COMMERCIAL MANUAL,

 THE BUSINESSMAN, HOW CUSTOMS 

 WORK, HOW DO YOU DO BUSINESS IN

 BRAZIL?

 THERE WAS A SENTENCE IN THERE 

 THAT, PAGE 130, THE PRESS 

 PICKED UP ON AND THE SENTENCE 

 WAS CORRUPTION IS ENDEMIC IN 

 BRAZIL.

 SO IT BECAME A BIG THING.

 I GOT CALLS, I MADE A MISTAKE 

 BECAUSE IT WAS AN HONEST 

 STATEMENT.

 WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE WAS 

 DISAVOW IT RIGHT AWAY EVEN 

 THOUGH IT WAS TRUE BUT 

 SOMETIMES HONESTY IS NOT THE 

 BEST POLICY AND IT DIDN'T WORK 

 VERY WELL AND WE HAD TO SAY IT 

 WAS A PROBLEM BUT WE WILL 

 CHANGE THE WORDING.

WE ARE TALKING 1998.

THIS WAS 1995.

 THIS WAS A PROBLEM WITH BRAZIL 

 ALONG WITH INFLATION AND 

 GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY, THAT 

 WAS A PROBLEM FOR A LONG TIME 

 AND THERE HAD BEEN VARIOUS 

 ATTEMPTS TO DEAL WITH THIS.

 BRAZIL IS A THRIVING DEMOCRACY.

 ONE THING WE DIDN'T MENTION IS 

 BOLSONARO LOVE THE MILITARY AND

 HAS NOSTALGIA FOR THE MILITARY.

 GO OF TIME.

 THE MILITARY WAS RESPONSIBLE.

 I DON'T THINK THEY WANT TO GET 

 BACK IN CONTROL ANYMORE.

 I AM SURE TOM FOUND THEM.

I DON'T THINK THEY ARE 

 ALONE.

 THE ARGENTINE MILITARY AND 

 BOLIVIAN MILITARY, NONE OF THEM

 WANT TO RUN THIS THING BECAUSE 

 IT HAS BECOME TOO COMPLICATED.

ONE MORE COMMENT ON THIS.

 ONE OF THE BIG THINGS ABOUT 

 FAMILIA WAS EDUCATION.

 AS PART OF PARTICIPATION, THE 

 FAMILY HAD TO MAKE SURE THE KID

 HAD A GOOD ATTENDANCE RECORD IN

 SCHOOL AND HAD A HEALTH CHECK 

 EVERY, I'VE FORGOTTEN WHAT IT 

 IS, EVERY FEW MONTHS.

 BIG ISSUE AMONG THE LOWER 

 MIDDLE CLASSES WHERE SOMETIMES 

 THEY DROP OUT OF SCHOOL AND 

 HAVE TO WORK IN THE STREET.

 WE HAVE STREET CHILDREN ISSUES 

 AND CHILDREN WORKING TO MAKE 

 MONEY FOR THE FAMILY.

 THAT SOMEBODY HELPED -- 

 EVENTUALLY WILL HELP BRAZIL GET

 TO THE POINT WHERE EDUCATION 

 PARTICULARLY HIGHER EDUCATION 

 IS OPEN TO EVERYBODY RATHER 

 THAN JUST THE UPPER-CLASS AND 

 THE ELITE IN BRAZIL.

I AM WONDERING ABOUT THE 

 AVERAGE BRAZILIAN, THE JOE BLOW

 OF BRAZIL.

 I GET A PRETTY GOOD PICTURE.

WHO THEY RODRIGUEZ.

JOSE IS MARRIED AND HAS A 

 COUPLE KIDS.

 HERE IS WHAT I HAVE READ 

 PRECEDING THE ELECTION OF 

 BOLSONARO AND YOU CAN TELL ME 

 HOW SIMILAR THIS IS WHAT YOU 

 EXPERIENCED.

 STUDENTS IN THE NORTH WHERE IT 

 IS WARMER, GOING TO SCHOOL AND 

 SCHOOL IS MADE OF STICKS AND 

 MUD, A LOT OF THE FAMILIES, THE

 REALLY POOR NEIGHBORHOODS HAD 

 TO CANCEL SCHOOL FOR WEEKS AND 

 MONTHS BECAUSE OF GUNFIRE, 

 ILLITERACY WAS ON THE RISE AND 

 THE SOLUTION FROM BOLSONARO'S 

 POINT OF VIEW WAS GET RID OF 

 THE GARBAGE IN THE EDUCATIONAL 

 SYSTEM AND THERE'S A LOT -- 

 PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE THE 

 CORRUPTION.

 THEY WANTED PRIVATIZATION AS A 

 WAY OF SOLVING THAT.

 THE MURDER RATE WAS 6 TIMES 

 THAT OF THE UNITED STATES AND 

 THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR 

 TEENAGERS, THIS MUST ALGER FOR 

 TIME OF LAW AND ORDER AND 

 ECONOMIC DEPRESSION, PEOPLE 

 HAVING DIFFICULTY OBTAINING 

 FOOD, SHELTER, BASIC NEEDS, 

 UNEMPLOYMENT, EXTREME POVERTY 

 WAS A, HEALTHCARE, IS THIS 

 CONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU WERE 

 SEEN BY THE TIME YOU LEFT 

 BRAZIL, PRECEDING THE ELECTION 

 OF BOLSONARO?

ALL PROGRAMS AND TO A 

 CERTAIN EXTENT -- WAS STARTING 

 TO UNRAVEL?

KNOW.

 FIRST OF ALL WHAT YOU DESCRIBED

 WAS NOT AN ABERRANT BRAZILIAN.

THIS IS THE REALLY DESPERATE

 CLASSES.

BRAZIL IS A MIDDLE-CLASS 

 COUNTRY.

 IT DOES HAVE EXTREME POLES OF 

 INEQUALITY AND YOU CAN FIND 

 THAT POVERTY IN BRAZIL IN THE 

 NORTHEAST AND THE LARGER 

 CITIES.

 THIS IS NOT TO SAY THERE ARE 

 NOT SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC 

 CHALLENGES, SECURITY CHALLENGES

 AND POLITICAL GRIPES BUT BRAZIL

 IS A VERY DIFFERENT COUNTRY 

 FROM WHAT YOU DESCRIBE.

 THE MOST DRAMATIC RECESSION 

 RECORDED IN HISTORY.

WHAT YOU WOULD THAT HAVE 

 HAPPENED?

WHEN HE WAS IMPEACHED AND IN

 THE AFTERMATH.

 IT IS ONLY NOW COMING OUT.

 IT IS ONLY NOW AT A POINT WHERE

 THERE IS A POSITIVE GROWTH 

 RATES.

 IS REBUILDING ITS ECONOMY.

 ONE OF THE LARGER CHALLENGES IS

 EVEN AS THIS ECONOMY GREW, AT 

 THE BEGINNING OF PRESIDENT 

 YOUSSEF'S TERM, BECAME THE 

 SIXTH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE 

 WORLD AND WELL-POSITIONED TO 

 BECOME THE FIFTH-LARGEST, IT 

 HAD NOT SEEN A CORRESPONDING 

 RISE IN PRODUCTIVITY AND 

 COMPETITIVENESS.

 THE BRAZILIAN ECONOMY WAS 

 LARGELY INWARD LOOKING, FOCUSED

 ON CONSUMERS AND ITS TRADE IS 

 LARGELY OUTBACK, RESISTANT TO 

 OPEN NEEDS MARKETS BECAUSE OF 

 LACK OF PRODUCTIVITY AND LACK 

 OF COMPETITIVENESS IN KEY AREAS

 WE SHOULD HAD REAL INDUSTRY, IN

 THE BUILDING OF LITIGATION 

 AIRCRAFT.

 IT IS NOW AT A POINT WHERE IT 

 HAS POSITIVE GROWTH AGAIN, 

 ATTEMPTING TO TAKE SIGNIFICANT 

 STRUCTURAL FORMS IN ITS 

 ECONOMY.

 AND ONE OF JAIR BOLSONARO'S 

 MOST IMPORTANT CHALLENGES IS 

 GENERATING ECONOMIC GROWTH, TO 

 RECUPERATE AND CONTINUE THE 

 KIND OF ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL 

 DEVELOPMENT THAT HAD BEGUN 

 UNDER PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS.

ONE OF THE REAL PROBLEMS, 

 HOW IT IS STRUCTURED, HOW A 

 COUNTRY THAT HAS, IN THE 

 COUNTS, 25, 26 PARTIES AND THE 

 ABILITY TO CHANGE PARTIES 

 OVERNIGHT IS EASY SO WHAT 

 HAPPENS?

 AND THE COALITION STARTS 

 FALLING APART, THAT IS PART OF 

 THE CORRUPTION AS WELL.

 NEPOTISM COMES INTO IT.

 AND TO BE PART OF THE 

 COALITION, THERE HAVE BEEN 

 VARIOUS ATTEMPTS TO BRING 

 SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS IN TO 

 THE SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY VOTE BY

 PARTY LISTS WHICH INCREASES THE

 NUMBER OF PARTIES OR USE THE 

 GERMAN SYSTEM WHERE YOU HAVE A 

 MIXED SYSTEM OF SINGLE-MEMBER 

 LISTS, THEY ARE TIED TO THE 

 PERSON WHO IS ELECTED.

 IF YOU GO TO BRAZIL NOW AND SAY

 WHO IS YOUR REPRESENTATIVE, 

 THEY CAN'T TELL YOU.

 THEY CAN TELL YOU ALL THE 

 PEOPLE WHO WERE ELECTED, THREE 

 SENATORS, THERE'S NO REAL 

 RESPONSIBILITY.

 IT HAS BEEN TRIED.

 I DON'T KNOW WHETHER BOLSONARO 

 WILL TRY TO GO FOR THAT.

 AND THAT SYSTEM HAS CHANGED IN 

 SOME WAY, I DON'T HAVE IS 

 OPTIMISTIC A VIEWPOINT OF 

 BRAZIL MAKING IT INTO EVEN 

 HIGHER THAN SOMETIMES IN THE 

 PAST BECAUSE IT BREEDS 

 CORRUPTION, IT BREEDS NEPOTISM,

 IT BREEDS ALL THE THINGS THAT 

 MAKES GOVERNMENTS UNRESPONSIVE 

 TO PEOPLE'S NEEDS.

 IT IS HARD TO ENVISAGE THIS 

 WOULD CHANGE DURING BOLSONARO'S

 CAREER.

 THAT'S NOT HIS AGENDA AT ALL, 

 BUT ONE COULD HOPE.

 I AGREE WITH TOM SHANNON ON 

 WHAT HAS HAPPENED RECENTLY TO 

 MAKE ME MORE OPTIMISTIC WHICH 

 IS A BUNCH OF YOUNG PROSECUTORS

 AND YOUNGER JUDGES TO HAVE GONE

 AFTER CORRUPTION IN A WAY THAT 

 HAS NOT ONLY HAD A MARK IN 

 BRAZIL BUT LATIN AMERICA, YOU 

 THINK OF THE BIG BRAZILIAN 

 COMPANY, THEIR TENTACLES HAVE 

 REACHED ALL OVER LATIN AMERICA.

WE ALL HAVE KNOWN IF YOU 

 WERE TO LET AMERICA AND ARE 

 PROMOTING US BUSINESS INTERESTS

 OVERSEAS, YOU KNOW FOR A FACT 

 THAT IT HAS BEEN THERE BEFORE 

 YOU AND PAID LOTS OF PEOPLE 

 OFF.

 YOU CAN'T PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT

 BUT YOU KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING.

 THERE IS A LOT MORE JUSTICE OUT

 THERE AND YOU CAN SAY TO 

 PRESIDENTS AND MINISTERS WHO 

 ARE HAVING BIDS ON PUBLIC WORKS

 THAT OUR PEOPLE KEEP YOU OUT OF

 TROUBLE.

 OUR PEOPLE HAVE TO ABIDE BY 

 SENATE RULES THAT OTHER 

 COUNTRIES DON'T.

THIS ALL SOUNDS GREAT.

 WE HAVE A LOT OF THE SAME, A 

 LOT OF THE REALLY GOOD THINGS 

 IN TERMS OF THE GUARANTEED 

 INCOME.

 WHAT HAPPENS IS BOLSONARO IS 

 ELECTED.

WHY?

 THAT'S WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

 WHY IS JAIR BOLSONARO ELECTED?

WHAT DOES JOSE LIKE ABOUT 

 JAIR BOLSONARO?

I NEVER RAN INTO BOLSONARO.

 DID YOU?

 WAS HE PROMINENT?

I DID RUN INTO HIM BUT HE 

 SPENT 27 YEARS IN THE BRAZILIAN

 LEGISLATURE AND WAS CONSIDERED 

 A CHARACTER OF SORTS.

 HE WAS NOT A POLITICAL FIGURE 

 OF GREAT IMPORT WHICH IS WHY HE

 HAS DONE SO WELL.

 IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE 

 CORRUPTION SCANDALS AND THE 

 MIDDLE CLASS RAGE OVER 

 CORRUPTION, THE LINKAGE BETWEEN

 BRAZIL'S POLITICAL CLASS AND 

 THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE, THE LACK 

 OF TRUST AND CONFIDENCE WAS 

 DRAMATIC.

 IN SOME WAYS IT WAS A POLITICAL

 JONESTOWN FROM BRAZIL.

THE WHOLE SCANS ALL -- 

THIS OPENS, THIS OPENS A 

 SPACE FOR NONTRADITIONAL 

 POLITICIANS, ESPECIALLY SOMEONE

 LIKE JAIR BOLSONARO WHO WAS 

 TALKING ABOUT LAW AND ORDER, 

 FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND TAKING 

 AWAY THE IDEA THAT WHAT HE 

 CONSIDERED AN IDEOLOGICAL BASIS

 LEFT HIS TENDENCIES IN 

 BRAZILIAN POLITICS AND HE WAS 

 ABLE TO EMERGE AS A CLEAR 

 ALTERNATIVE TO TRADITIONAL 

 POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND 

 ALLOWED HIM TO WIN THE 

 ELECTION.

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS IT 

 WASN'T SO MUCH ECONOMIC AS IT 

 WAS POLITICAL.

 LET'S WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN.

 DRAIN THE SWAMP SO TO SPEAK.

I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY 

 RIGHT.

WAS VERY SOCIAL AND CULTURAL

 PART?

THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO 

 UNDERSTAND BETTER.

I HAVEN'T BEEN THERE A 

 WHILE.

 I TOOK A GROUP OF PEOPLE TO 

 BRAZIL FOR A FEW DAYS IN ONE OF

 OUR PROGRAMS AND TALKS WITH 

 REGULAR BRAZILIANS, SOME OF THE

 NGOs.

 THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE FELL AT 

 SOME POINT AND WHEN THIS GETS 

 EXPOSED EVERYBODY THOUGHT ABOUT

 IT.

 THE MAYOR OF SAN PAOLO, THEY 

 SAY HE ROBS BUT EVERYBODY KNEW 

 IT.

 ALL HIS MONEY WAS STASHED IN 

 SWISS BANKS.

I HAD HIM OFF THE PAPERS.

I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS PART 

 OF THE PANAMA PAPERS SITUATION 

 BUT IN FACT IT BECAME CLEAR, IT

 BECAME PUBLIC HE HAD BEEN 

 STEALING THIS MONEY.

 A VERY CHARMING RASCAL MANY 

 TIMES AND HE RAN SOME POWER, HE

 WAS A MAYOR DALEY OF SAN PAOLO,

 SO I THINK WE BOTH AGREE THE 

 BRAZILIAN PEOPLE, BECAUSE THE 

 STUFF WAS EXPOSED, THEY WERE 

 SET UP OF THE CLASS, A GUY LIKE

 THAT MIGHT BE SAYING SIMILAR 

 THINGS.

SOCIAL SCIENTISTS HAVE TRIED

 TO FIGURE OUT WHAT GIVES RISE 

 IN AN ELECTORATE TO STRONG MEN 

 TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE 

 DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TO GET 

 ELECTED AND TRYING WHAT THEY 

 CAN DO TO AT THIS RATE THE SAME

 PROCESS BUT GOT THEM ELECTED.

 WHETHER YOU ARE TALKING ERDOGAN

 IN TURKEY OR VLADIMIR PUTIN, 

 POLAND UNFORTUNATELY, MADURO, 

 CHAVEZ, THE ECONOMIC 

 EXPLANATION OF PEOPLE BEING 

 LEFT BEHIND ECONOMICALLY IS 

 COMPLETELY INSUFFICIENT TO 

 REALLY DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON.

 IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS MORE 

 SOCIAL, MORE POLITICAL, MORE 

 VALUE LADEN THEN IT GIVES RISE 

 TO A SIMPLE, YOU ARE 

 MARGINALIZED ECONOMICALLY SO 

 YOU'RE DESPERATE AND GOING TO 

 GO WITH WHOMEVER.

 IS THAT HAPPENING?

 BESIDES THE CORRUPTION THING, 

 YOU HAVE BOLSONARO WHO IS 

 PROMOTING GUN RIGHTS IN A 

 COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT HAVE A 

 GUN CULTURE.

 HE HAS SAID HORRIBLE THINGS 

 ABOUT THE INDIGENOUS, 

 PARASITES, HOMOSEXUALS, RATHER 

 HAVE MY SON DIE IN AUTOMOBILE 

 ACCIDENT.

 HE GOES OVER THE TOP, HE HAS A 

 PRETTY GOOD APPROVAL RATING.

 IT MAY SOUND FAMILIAR TO SOME 

 OF US HERE.

 WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

THE SAME IN BRAZIL AS IT IS 

 HERE.

 VOTERS ARE DISCERNING, VOTERS 

 ARE SMART, VOTERS KNOW WHAT 

 THEY WANT AND HOW TO FILTER OUT

 STUFF THEY DON'T CONSIDER 

 IMPORTANT.

 FOR BRAZILIAN VOTERS WHAT WAS 

 IMPORTANT WAS GETTING THE 

 ECONOMY BACK ON TRACK, FIGHTING

 CRIME, FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND 

 TO A CERTAIN EXTENT REORIENTING

 THE COUNTRY INTERNATIONALLY AND

 TRYING TO BUILD A BETTER 

 RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED 

 STATES.

 BOLSONARO HAD ALL KINDS OF 

 OTHER STUFF GOING ON AROUND HIM

 THE SAME WAY OUR PRESIDENT HAS 

 ALL KINDS OF OTHER STUFF GOING 

 ON AROUND HIM BUT FOR VOTERS 

 WHO WANTED A CLEAR PATHWAY 

 FORWARD HE OFFERED IT AND HE 

 OFFERED SOMETHING THAT WAS 

 DISTANTLY DIFFERENT FROM THE 

 OPPOSING CANDIDATE WAS OFFERING

 AT THE TIME, AND IN THIS 

 REGARD, THE BRAZILIANS SHOWED 

 THEY WERE PREPARED TO PUT UP 

 WITH THE OTHER RHETORIC IF 

 PRESIDENT BOLSONARO WAS 

 PREPARED TO FOCUS ON THE 

 PRIMARY PURPOSE OF HIS CAMPAIGN

 AND WHAT YOU WILL FIND IS IT IS

 NOT CLEAR HE WILL BE A STRONG 

 MAN.

 THE THING ABOUT BRAZIL, IT IS 

 THE BIG BLOB.

 IT TAKES YOU IN AND HAVE REVIEW

 BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A LARGE 

 COUNTRY, SO DIVERSE, SO DYNAMIC

 IN A FEDERAL STATE AND THE 

 STATE ARE IMPORTANT, THE 

 GOVERNORS ARE IMPORTANT AND HE 

 STILL HAS A PARTY WHICH, WHILE 

 IT HAS LEVERAGE IN THE 

 LEGISLATURE AND HAS POPULARITY,

 THE BIGGEST LEGISLATIVE 

 CHALLENGE WHICH IS PENSION 

 REFORM IS PUSHING THROUGH THE 

 ASSEMBLY AND IT IS BEING DONE 

 SO HE GET SOME OF WHAT HE WANTS

 BUT NOT ALL OF WHAT HE WENTS.

 AS HE GETS DEEPER INTO HIS 

 PRESIDENCY, THE BRAZILIANS WANT

 HIM TO FOCUS ON THE THREE OR 

 FOUR CORE INTERESTS THAT MATTER

 TO THEM AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH

 HE BEGINS FOCUSING ELSEWHERE, 

 THE SOCIAL RHETORIC OR 

 ENVIRONMENTAL RHETORIC IS GOING

 TO LEAD TO GREATER TENSION 

 WITHIN HIS GOVERNMENT AND 

 GREATER CONCERNS AMONG 

 BRAZILIANS AND DISSIPATE HIS 

 ENERGY.

 MY HOPE IS HE CAN DISCIPLINE 

 AND FOCUS BECAUSE BRAZIL 

 DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.

 FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE 

 UNITED STATES THIS GUY HAS TO 

 BE SUCCESSFUL.

 IF HE IS NOT SUCCESSFUL WE WILL

 HAVE A BRAZIL WHICH WILL BE A 

 TOUGHER PLACE OVER THE NEXT 

 BUNCH OF YEARS AND NOT BE AS 

 HELPFUL TO US AS WE TRIED TO 

 BUILD A NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH 

 HIM.

Ambassador Romero: LET'S 

 TURN TO THE TITLE, US -- 

 "US/BRAZIL BROMANCE: WHAT'S IN 

 STORE FOR US?".

 I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF YOU 

 CAUGHT THE MEETING BETWEEN 

 DONALD TRUMP AND PRESIDENT 

 BOLSONARO.

 THEY SEEM TO BE KINDRED SPIRITS

 IN MANY WAYS.

THERE SMARMY SMILES ARE 

 DIFFERENT.

 THEY DON'T SMILE THE SAME WAY.

 THEY ARE DIABOLICAL PERHAPS BUT

 DIFFERENTLY.

 AS A SIDE NOTE.

 A GREAT MEETING AND THE THREE 

 OF US NEXT DIPLOMATS WILL ALL 

 TELL YOU THAT WORKING WITH THE 

 BRAZILIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY WAS 

 NEVER EASY.

 TOO MANY CASES I FOUND THAT 

 BRAZILIAN DIPLOMATS VIEWED ANY 

 GAINS IN THE UNITED STATES AS A

 NET LOSS FOR THEM, A 0-SUM 

 GAME.

 BUT NOW BOLSONARO IS CHANGING 

 THAT -- TO COOPERATE ON 

 VENEZUELA AT THE UN ON 

 STRATEGIC THINGS, HE IS OPENING

 UP THE BRAZILIAN SPACE CENTER 

 FOR US COMMERCIAL LAUNCHES.

 THE GROUND SEEMS TO BE OPEN FOR

 MORE COOPERATION AND YOU DON'T 

 SEE THE ANTI-US AND ITS 

 ASCENDANCY THAT YOU SEE IN THE 

 BRAZILIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY ALL 

 THE TIME.

 DO WE SAY THAT IS ENOUGH?

 THAT'S GOOD FOR US?

BRAZILIAN DIPLOMATS ARE AS 

 WELL-TRAINED AS ANY DIPLOMATIC 

 CORPS I EVER DEALT WITH IN MY 

 CAREER.

AND THE MOST HIGHLY PAID BY 

 THE WAY.

QUITE WELL-PAID AND THE 25 

 YEARS FROM WHEN I WAS FIRST IN 

 BRAZIL AND WHEN I WAS 

 AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL SOME OF 

 THE NAMES WITH THE SAME BECAUSE

 THE SONS OF THE ORIGINAL 

 FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS WERE 

 COMING IN.

 A LOT OF IT, THE RUSSIANS HAVE 

 A NICE EXPRESSION, SO WHEN 

 CARDOZA CAME IN.

 AND THE BEARDED ONES, IN THE 

 FOREIGN MINISTRY IT CHANGED 

 CONSIDERABLY.

 OUR ABILITY TO TALK WITH THEM 

 IN A REASONABLE WAY TO TRY TO 

 GET COOPERATION WITH THE 

 BRAZILIANS AT THE UN, THE WTO, 

 WE ALWAYS HAD PROBLEMS BUT IT 

 CHANGED CONSIDERABLY.

 IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE FOREIGN 

 MINISTRY IS STRUCTURED AND HOW 

 HE AND HIS FOREIGN MINISTER 

 WANT THE FOREIGN MINISTRY TO 

 OPERATE.

 THEY CAN'T OPERATE ON THEIR OWN

 IN A SORT OF NATIONALISTIC OR 

 ANTI-AMERICAN WAY.

 IT HAS TO COME FROM THE 

 PRESIDENT AND FOREIGN MINISTER.

 I THINK PROBABLY WE WILL HAVE 

 LOTS OF OPPORTUNITY.

 I TALKED TO SOME BRAZILIAN 

 JOURNALISTS IN BRAZIL IS NOT A 

 COUNTRY THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT 

 WAKES UP AND FIX ABOUT FIRST 

 THING IN THE MORNING.

 UNLESS THERE'S A CRISIS IN THE 

 BRAZIL IT'S NOT AT THE TOP OF 

 THE PRIORITY LIST.

 WE WILL SEE.

 THE RELATIONSHIP IS GOING TO BE

 BETTER BUT I'M NOT SURE HOW FAR

 OR HOW IMPORTANT IT WILL BE IN 

 TERMS OF WORLD AFFAIRS.

THIS GUY WHO IS FOREIGN 

 MINISTER.

 ERNEST ARAUJO O WAS PLUCKED OUT

 OF THE MID-RANKS AND ELEVATED 

 TO THE CONCIERGE OF THE FOREIGN

 MINISTER.

 IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET IN 

 LINE WITH BOLSONARO AND BECOME 

 MORE PROACTIVE AND POSITIVE AS 

 RELATES TO THE UNITED STATES?

WE ARE GOING TO FIND OUT.

 ERNESTO WAS THE NUMBER 2 FELLOW

 AT THE BRAZILIAN EMBASSY IN 

 WASHINGTON FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

 HE IS A GOOD DIPLOMAT BUT HE 

 WAS HEAD OF NORTH AMERICAN 

 AFFAIRS WHEN HE WAS ELEVATED TO

 BE FOREIGN MINISTER AND THAT IS

 UNUSUAL IN BRAZIL'S FOREIGN 

 MINISTRY STRUCTURE BUT HE CAN 

 TAKE CREDIT FOR SUCCESSFUL 

 VISIT BY PRESIDENT BOLSONARO TO

 WASHINGTON.

 THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS IT 

 WAS SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS OR BOTH

 SIDES.

 BRAZIL GOT A FAIR BIT OUT OF 

 IT.

 SOME OF THE IMPORTANCE 

 SYMBOLICALLY SUCH AS SUPPORT 

 FOR BRAZIL AT ADMISSION TO THE 

 O

 OBC ED WHICH IS TYPICAL OF 

 DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, TO BRING 

 BRAZIL INTO THAT ENVIRONMENT 

 WAS ALMOST AS BIG AS BRAZIL 

 ENTERING BRICKS.

 BECAUSE OF ITS MAJOR NON-NATO 

 ALLY STATUS WHICH GAVE BRAZIL 

 THE FRONT OF THE LINE WITH OUR 

 NATO ALLIES WHEN IT COMES TO 

 PURCHASING MILITARY EQUIPMENT 

 AND CERTAIN KINDS OF 

 COOPERATION AND INTELLIGENCE 

 SHARING, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY 

 THE TECHNICAL SAFEGUARDS, DONE 

 BY BRAZIL IN THE UNITED STATES 

 TO ALLOW THE SHARING OF CERTAIN

 KINDS OF SENSITIVE TECHNOLOGY 

 AND INFORMATION RELATED TO 

 SPACE LAUNCH AND THIS WILL 

 ALLOW US COMPANIES AMONG OTHERS

 TO USE THEIR BRAZIL SPACE 

 LAUNCH FACILITY TO LAUNCH 

 SATELLITES AND THIS IS A BIG 

 DEAL BECAUSE IT IS AN EDITORIAL

 LAUNCH SITE, MUCH BETTER LUNCH 

 SITE THAN CAPE CANAVERAL.

 IT IS CHEAPER FOR AMERICAN 

 COMPANIES BUT WILL OPEN A SPACE

 FOR THE UNITED STATES AND 

 BRAZIL TO COOPERATE ON SPACE 

 TECHNOLOGIES WHICH ARE 

 INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC 

 MISSILE TECHNOLOGIES AND THIS 

 IS SOMETHING OUR 

 NONPROLIFERATION PEOPLE WORK 

 JEALOUSLY TO GUARD.

 THE FACT THIS ADMINISTRATION 

 WAS ABLE TO OPEN THAT DOOR TO 

 BRAZILIANS WAS A PRETTY 

 REMARKABLE STEP.

 IN THIS MOMENT WE HAD A GOOD 

 START IN TERMS OF PERSONAL 

 RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE TWO 

 PRESIDENTS.

 THE VISIT ITSELF ACCOMPLISHED 

 SOME IMPORTANT FIRST STEPS IN 

 BUILDING THE RELATIONSHIP.

 THE TRICK IS TO GET OUR 

 BUREAUCRACIES TO WORK TOGETHER 

 ON THEM AND THAT IS WHERE THE 

 CHALLENGE WILL BE.

 THAT IS WHERE WE MIGHT 

 ENCOUNTER RESISTANCE AND THAT 

 IS WHERE PEOPLE LIKE THE 

 FOREIGN MINISTER ARE INVOLVED.

THERE WAS ONE NOT VERY 

 WIDELY KNOWN THINGS THAT 

 HAPPENED THAT IS QUITE 

 INTERESTING.

 BOLSONARO EXPLORING THE 

 POSSIBILITY OF A CUSTOMS UNION,

 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO 

 BILATERAL TRADE DEALS.

I LEARNED THAT THE HARD WAY 

 WITH CHILE.

IS TRYING TO CHANGE THAT 

 BECAUSE HE WANTS TO DO A DEAL 

 WITH THE UNITED STATES, 

 PRESUMABLY.

WE HAD THE FREE-TRADE AREA 

 OF THE AMERICAS IF YOU WILL 

 RECALL WHICH WAS A CLINTON 

 VISION OF THE FREE-TRADE AREA 

 THROUGHOUT ALL THE AMERICAS 

 FROM CANADA TO CHILE.

 WE'VE DONE A LOT BILATERALLY 

 OVER THE YEARS BUT BACK THEN 

 WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ONE HUGE 

 TRADE ZONE WHICH WOULD BE THE 

 BIGGEST TRADE AGREEMENT IN THE 

 WORLD AND BRAZIL DID EVERYTHING

 POSSIBLE TO STOP IT.

 THEY DIDN'T WANT IT TO HAPPEN 

 BECAUSE THE 0-SUM GAME.

 OF THE UNITED STATES IS LEADING

 THIS WE MIGHT HAVE SOME 

 INTEREST BUT THEIR GAIN IS OUR 

 LOSS.

 IT IS A REFLECTION OF THE TIME.

THE UNITED STATES WOULD 

 DOMINATE THE ECONOMIC 

 SITUATION.

 THE ECONOMY IS SO DOMINATING 

 FOR BRAZIL IN TERMS OF PRODUCT.

 WHEN I WAS FIRST IN BRAZIL IT 

 WAS COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE IN THE

 60s.

 WHEN I WENT BACK THE SECOND 

 TIME THIS HELD ON, AUTOMOBILE 

 PARTS.

 ON THE SHORT RANGE AIRCRAFT, 

 MIGHT HAVE BEEN BUILT BY 

 EMPIRE.

 THAT TOOK A BIG JUMP AND 

 SOYBEANS, AGRIBUSINESS.

THEY ARE DIVERSIFIED.

THEY HAD COMPETITORS IN A 

 CERTAIN WAY AND OTHER AREAS 

 WHERE WE CAN COOPERATE IN 

 BRAZIL.

 JAYCOB MEGNA OF OPENING THE 

 DOOR TO THAT.

YOU DON'T SEE BOLSONARO 

 THREATENING DEMOCRATIC 

 INSTITUTIONS IN BRAZIL OR 

 SUCCEEDING?

BRAZIL'S DEMOCRATIC 

 INSTITUTIONS CAN TAKE CARE OF 

 THEMSELVES AND THE BRAZILIAN 

 PEOPLE ARE COMMITTED TO THOSE 

 INSTITUTIONS WHICH DOESN'T MEAN

 BOLSONARO MIGHT NOT MAKE 

 HEADWAY IN SOME AREAS WE FIND 

 UNCOMFORTABLE.

 WE HAVE A STRONG SET UP FOR THE

 RELATIONSHIP.

 WE HAVE TO WORK ON MAKING THAT 

 REAL.

 IN THE PROCESS, WHAT THE 

 PRESIDENT SAYS WILL AFFECT THE 

 TONE OF THE RELATIONSHIP.

 IF HE CONTINUES TO ATTACK THE 

 LGBT QUEUE POPULATION, THE 

 ECONOMY OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE 

 AND PROTECTION OF INDIGENOUS 

 PEOPLE, IF HE THREATENS THE 

 WELL-BEING OF THE AMAZON AND 

 DIVERSE CITY THIS WILL GENERATE

 A RESPONSE IN THE UNITED STATES

 THAT WILL MAKE THE RELATIONSHIP

 HARDER AND THAT WILL NOT HELP 

 HIM.

 BEGIN TO CHALLENGE THE SUPPORT 

 SOME PEOPLE ARE PREPARED TO 

 GIVE INTERNALLY.

 MY HOPE IS -- I'M CONFIDENT 

 ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC 

 INSTITUTIONS.

DO YOU WANT TO DO QUESTIONS?

ANY QUESTIONS?

THANKS.

 I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS, THE

 QUESTIONS ABOUT BRAZIL'S 

 FOREIGN-POLICY, THE 

 RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED 

 STATES, IN THIS COUNTRY, IN THE

 US, TRUMP'S BREAD OF POPULIST 

 NATIONALISM HAS A CONNECTION TO

 A JACKSONIAN FOREIGN-POLICY 

 THAT EMPHASIZES MILITARY POWER 

 AND RETREAT FROM ENGAGEMENT 

 WITH INTERNATIONAL 

 INSTITUTIONS.

 DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE SOME OTHER

 MANIFESTATIONS IN BRAZIL'S 

 FOREIGN-POLICY, WITH YOU AND 

 LINKED BODIES?

TALKING ABOUT MILITARY 

 INTERVENTION IN VENEZUELA, 

 BRAZIL WOULD BE A NATURAL, I 

 DON'T THINK IT WILL HAPPEN AND 

 THERE WON'T BE PUSHED BACK FROM

 MILITARY GETTING INVOLVED IN 

 THAT WAY.

 IT IS TOO EARLY TO SAY WHAT 

 KIND OF FOREIGN-POLICY 

 BOLSONARO WILL HAVE.

 IT WILL BE VERY ANXIOUS TO BE A

 PARTNER WITH THE UNITED STATES.

 HE LIKES TRUMP AND THE FACT 

 THAT TRUMP IS SORT OF PRESSING 

 DEMOCRACY TO GET MORE POWER AS 

 WE MENTIONED, A NUMBER OF OTHER

 DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS 

 AROUND THE WORLD HAVE BECOME 

 MORE AUTOCRATIC.

 THAT IS A NATURAL TENDENCY BUT 

 AS TOM SAID HE WILL BE STYMIED 

 BY THE BRAZILIAN SYSTEM OF 

 DEMOCRACY.

 PRESS IS FREE IN BRAZIL, IT IS 

 IRRESPONSIBLY FREE.

IN THE WHITE HOUSE MEETING, 

 BECAUSE BOLSONARO STARTED BY 

 TALKING ABOUT FAKE NEWS IN 

 BRAZIL.

 THAT RING DONALD TRUMP'S CHIMES

 RIGHT AWAY.

TWO PEAS IN A POD.

I WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING.

 LET ME SAY I HAVE A DIFFERENT 

 RELATIONSHIP TO BRAZIL THAN THE

 ONE YOU HAVE ALL EXPRESSED 

 BECAUSE -- I REMEMBER AMERICAN 

 STUDIES, I DO MOST OF MY 

 RESEARCH IN MEXICO, VENEZUELA, 

 IT IS NOT BRAZIL BUT I HAVE THE

 RELATIONSHIP THAT HAS TO DO 

 WITH BRAZIL.

 WHEN I WAS IN GRADUATE SCHOOL 

 WE HAD A LOT OF BRAZILIANS AT 

 THE TIME AND MY FIRST JOB WAS 

 IN ST. LOUIS AND THERE WERE A 

 NUMBER OF BRAZILIANS ON THE 

 FACULTY.

 AND CHICAGO IT WAS MOSTLY 

 GRADUATE SCHOOLS.

 THESE FOLKS WERE REFUGEES AND 

 EXILES AND CHILDREN OF THE 

 PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN EXILED 

 DURING THE MILITARY JUNTA.

 IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME WHEN YOU

 SAY BRAZILIANS ARE COMMITTED TO

 DEMOCRACY BECAUSE ALL THE 

 PEOPLE I KNEW HAD LIVED THROUGH

 THE HARDSHIPS OF THE YEAR, THEY

 WOULD NOT WANT ANY RETURN TO 

 THAT.

 SO YOU PRESERVE DEMOCRACY IN 

 BRAZIL WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR 

 LEFT.

 THEY PICKED UP A LOT OF VALUES 

 WITH RESPECT TO DEMOCRATIC 

 SOCIALISM, PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN 

 PART OF THE GUERRILLAS 

 ESPOUSING ARMED CONFLICT DURING

 THE YEARS OF THE MILITARY AND 

 WENT TO POLAND WITH MY GOOD 

 FRIENDS WENT TO POLAND THINKING

 HE WOULD BECOME A COMMUNIST AND

 GO BACK TO BRAZIL BECOMING A 

 REAL COMMUNIST AND HE SAID HE 

 STARTED HAVING NIGHTMARES EVERY

 NIGHT WHEN HE LIVED IN A REAL 

 COMMUNIST SOCIETY AND LITTLE BY

 LITTLE BECAME A SOCIALIST.

 I THINK BRAZIL IS A PLACE WHERE

 THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, ONE 

 OF THOSE PEOPLE WAS MENDOZA, 

 AND EXILE OF THOSE YEARS.

 I THINK THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM 

 IN BRAZIL IN THAT VAST 

 MIDDLE-CLASS YOU ARE TALKING 

 ABOUT BECAUSE PEOPLE DID RETURN

 AND DID GO BACK AND ESTABLISH 

 THEMSELVES.

 I THINK IT IS A RICH POLITICAL 

 SPECTRUM.

 I HAVE MORE CONFIDENCE IN THEM 

 POLITICALLY THAN I HAVE IN 

 AMERICANS WHO HAVE NOT LIVED IN

 EXTREME SITUATIONS.

IT IS INTERESTING JUST 

 BEFORE I CAME HERE, I READ THAT

 BOLSONARO FIRED HIS MINISTER OF

 EDUCATION BECAUSE THE MINISTER 

 OF EDUCATION HAD DICTATED THAT 

 THEY WOULD REMOVE THE NEGATIVE 

 REFERENCES THE 20 YEAR MILITARY

 DICTATORSHIP.

 APPARENTLY ALL THE 

 SCHOOLCHILDREN IN BRAZIL WOULD 

 READ THE NEGATIVE PARTS OF 

 MILITARY DICTATORSHIP WHICH WAS

 OBVIOUS BUT HE DEMANDED ALL OF 

 THAT BE REMOVED.

 THERE WAS SO MUCH PUSHBACK.

 THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT TOM WAS 

 SAYING, THEY FIRMLY BELIEVE 

 BRAZIL DEMOCRACY WILL SURVIVE, 

 SO MUCH PUSHBACK BY TEACHERS 

 AND PARENTS THAT THIS WAS BEING

 OVERLOOKED, OR IN SOME WAY 

 HAVING A SHINY GLOSS PUT ON 

 WHEN IT WASN'T THAT HE WAS 

 FORCED TO RESIGN.

 AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU MAY 

 BE RIGHT.

THE EDUCATION SYSTEM FOR 

 EXAMPLE.

 TELL ME IF THIS HAS CHANGED IN 

 THAT PERIOD OF TIME.

 WE HAD WHEN PRESIDENT CLINTON 

 CAME, A COUNTRY TO COUNTRY 

 EDUCATION AGREEMENT.

 ONE OF THE THINGS OUR PEOPLE 

 FOUND OUT WAS A STRANGE PART OF

 THE SYSTEM.

 IF YOU WERE A RICH PERSON YOU 

 WOULD SEND YOUR KIDS TO A 

 PRIVATE SCHOOL AND INEVITABLY 

 THEY WOULD BE ELECTED TO A FREE

 PUBLIC UNIVERSITY WHICH ARE THE

 BEST ONES.

THEY ARE FREE, NO TUITION.

 THE CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY HAS 

 TUITION.

 IF YOU WERE POOR YOU SEND YOUR 

 KID TO A NOT VERY GOOD PUBLIC 

 SCHOOL AND COULDN'T GET INTO A 

 FREE PUBLIC UNIVERSITY UNLESS 

 YOU SACRIFICED AND SCROUNGED UP

 THE MONEY TO SEND THEM TO A 

 UNIVERSITY WHERE YOU PAY 

 TUITION.

 I REMEMBER THE EDUCATION 

 MINISTER WAS INTENT ON TRYING 

 TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM BECAUSE IT

 PERPETUATED THE RICH ELITE AND 

 DIDN'T ALLOW MUCH MOVEMENT 

 UPWARDS.

 I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT HAS 

 CHANGED.

 I HAVEN'T SEEN THE NEWS THAT 

 THE SYSTEM IS CHANGED BUT THAT 

 IS AN IMPORTANT PART ALSO OF 

 THIS RISING MIDDLE CLASS, YOU 

 NEED EDUCATION TO BREAKOUT OF 

 THE CLASS THEY APPEALED TO.

TOM.

 YOU THINK HISTORY WILL BE KIND 

 TO LULA?

I DO.

 I THINK IT WILL BE KINDER TO 

 CARDOZA BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID 

 BUT I BELIEVE IN SOME WAYS, 

 LULA'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS WILL BE 

 SEEN AS EXPANDING THE NUMBER OF

 PEOPLE WHO BENEFIT FROM THE 

 BRAZILIAN ECONOMY, THE 

 DRESSING, THE ISSUE OF EXTREME 

 POVERTY IN THE NORTHEASTERN 

 PART OF BRAZIL.

 AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT HE 

 INOCULATED BRAZIL AGAINST THE 

 KIND OF POPULISM WE WERE SEEING

 IN VENEZUELA AND BOLIVIA AND 

 ECUADOR AND ARGENTINA.

 AND CLUNG TO THE ECONOMIC 

 POLICY AND APPROACHES THAT 

 CARDOZA PUT IN PLACE AND 

 CREATED ENOUGH CONTINUITY OF 

 POLICY TO ALLOW THE ECONOMY TO 

 CONTINUE TO GROW.

 THERE WILL BE ANY NUMBER OF 

 CRITICISMS OF HIM AS ANY 

 PRESIDENT HAS TO ENDURE, BUT I 

 THINK HE WILL BE SEEN AS 

 SOMEONE WHO WAS ABLE TO INSURE 

 THAT BRAZIL DIDN'T FALL UNDER 

 THE INFLUENCE OF THE KIND OF 

 POPULISM WE SAW IN SOUTH 

 AMERICA.

WHEN I GOT TO BRAZIL IN THE 

 MIDDLE OF THE ELECTION 

 CAMPAIGN, WHAT IF WE MEET WITH 

 SOME OF THE CANDIDATES NOT TO 

 SAY ANYTHING POLITICAL BUT JUST

 TO GET TO KNOW THEM AND SEE 

 WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY?

 I MET WITH ALMOST EVERY ONE OF 

 THE CANDIDATES EXCEPT FOR LULA.

 AFTER HE WAS DEFEATED, I SAID 

 SEE IF LULA WILL COME TO THE 

 RESIDENCE FOR LUNCH SOMETIME 

 AND HE DID AND HE BROUGHT HIS 

 PEOPLE WITH THEM AND HERE'S 

 THIS ROUGH AND TUMBLE GUY WITH 

 A FEW FINGERS MISSING FROM 

 HAVING WORKED IN THE FACTORY.

 HE WAS A MACHINE OPERATOR.

 HE WAS A GOOD LISTENER.

 HE DIDN'T SAY TOO MUCH BUT HE 

 DIDN'T HAVE TO BE IDEOLOGICAL 

 AT THE TIME.

 THE GOVERNMENT WAS INTERESTED.

 MY IMPRESSION OF LULA WAS QUITE

 POSITIVE.

 THE IMPRESSION OF HIM BEFORE IN

 THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT'S EYES,

 HE WAS GOING TO RENOUNCE THE 

 DEBT, BE ANTI-AMERICAN AND DO 

 ALL THESE BAD THINGS SO THERE 

 WAS SOME FEAR, TOM WAS RIGHT, 

 HE WAS SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE 

 OUT HE NEEDED TO TAKE WHAT WAS 

 GOOD AND WHAT WAS LEFT TO HIM 

 AND PRESERVE IT AND ADD ON TO 

 IT WHICH HE DID IN THE SOCIAL 

 SIDE, ONE OF THE FIRST THING HE

 DID WAS HIRE A FINANCE MINISTER

 WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE BANK OF

 BOSTON IN BRAZIL.

 THEY WERE ABLE TO KEEP 

 INFLATION DOWN, DIDN'T 

 UNDERSTAND.

 HE WAS A DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH 

 REALLY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY 

 GET HIM ON BOGUS CHARGES.

 WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE SCOPE 

 AND AMOUNT OF MONEY INVOLVED 

 WITH THE CAR WASH SCANDAL, AND 

 ALL OF THAT.

 THEY GOT HIM ON A COUPLE 

 HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS WORTH 

 OF SERVICES AND CONSTRUCTION 

 MONEY AND REFURBISHING A CONDO 

 ON THE BEACH.

PRESIDENT CLINTON WAS 

 IMPEACHED BY CONGRESS BECAUSE 

 HE HAD AN AFFAIR WITH A YOUNG 

 PERSON.

 THAT WAS NOT A HUGE THEFT OF 

 GOVERNMENT -- OF LEADERS DON'T 

 THINK TO THEMSELVES WHAT IS MY 

 LEGACY GOING TO BE, THIS 

 HAPPENS.

 YOU SAY IT IS A SMALL THING BUT

 YOU DON'T EXPECT THAT OF THE 

 PRESIDENT OF A COUNTRY.

 THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO LULA 

 AND HE WAS BEING MADE AN 

 EXAMPLE OF.

 THE PROSECUTORS, THE JUDGES 

 THAT WERE DOING THIS WERE IN 

 THE MOOD TO BRING THIS TO 

 PUBLIC ATTENTION, CONVICT 

 PEOPLE, PUT THEM IN JAIL FOR 

 WHATEVER CRIMES THEY COMMIT AND

 THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED WITH LULA

 ALONG WITH SOME WHO HAD TAKEN 

 MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

WE HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS.

MY NAME IS CHRISTIAN.

 I'M A GRADUATE STUDENT, 

 INCOMING PUBLIC POLICY STUDENT 

 NEXT YEAR.

 SO MY QUESTION IS RELATED TO 

 THE SCANDAL, I AM FROM 

 ARGENTINA, IT WAS A BIG DEAL, 

 PERU'S POLITICAL INSTITUTION, 

 SEVERAL PRESIDENTS WERE 

 INVOLVED AND THERE WAS A MONEY 

 TRAIL INVOLVED IN THAT.

 GIVEN THE SITUATION THAT HAS 

 HAPPENED OUT OF THAT AND A LOT 

 OF PEOPLE ARE VERY FRUSTRATED 

 WITH THE POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS

 IN SEVERAL SOUTH AMERICAN 

 COUNTRIES SUCH AS PERU, SOME 

 PLACES IN ARGENTINA AND ALL THE

 PLAYERS, DO YOU THINK HIS 

 ELECTION COULD CAUSE A RIPPLE 

 EFFECT IN TERMS OF THE RISING 

 POPULISM THAT PEOPLE FEEL THEY 

 WANT TO MAKE SURE CORRUPTION IS

 TACKLED FIRST AND FOREMOST, AND

 WOULD THAT DEPEND, HOW WOULD 

 THAT BE -- YOU MENTIONED IT 

 DEPENDS ON HOW THE INSTITUTION,

 STRONGLY DEMOCRATIC 

 INSTITUTIONS STRONG ENOUGH?

 OUR COUNTRY STRONG ENOUGH TO 

 WITHSTAND SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

GUATEMALA DID.

 GUATEMALA CAN DO IT, PERU CAN 

 DO IT, ARGENTINA CAN DO IT, 

 CHILE CAN DO IT.

 CORRUPTION WILL BE A BIG DEAL 

 ACROSS MANY ELECTIONS.

 TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, THERE 

 ALREADY IS A REORIENTATION OF 

 SORTS IN SOUTH AMERICA.

 BOLSONARO'S ELECTION IS NOT THE

 FIRST PART OF THAT.

 SOUTH AMERICA WHICH AT ONE 

 POINT WAS COLORED PINK BECAUSE 

 OF LEFT OF CENTER OR 

 PROGRESSIVE GOVERNMENT IS NOT 

 PINK ANYMORE.

 IF YOU LOOK AT BRAZIL, 

 ARGENTINA, CHILE, PERU, 

 COLOMBIA, YOU COULD ALMOST PUT 

 ECUADOR IN THEIR.

 IF NOT CENTER-RIGHT GOVERNMENT 

 TO LEASE GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE 

 MOVED AWAY FROM PREVIOUS 

 PROGRESSIVE IDEOLOGIES AND 

 APPROACHES.

 AS THEY HAVE DONE SO THEY 

 CREATED I THINK A POSSIBILITY 

 FOR SOUTH AMERICAN POLITICS TO 

 MOVE BEYOND IDEOLOGICAL CLAIMS 

 FOR VOTES AND INCREASINGLY 

 VOTERS ARE GOING TO BE LOOK NOT

 AT IDEOLOGIES BUT 

 ACCOMPLISHMENT AND TO THE 

 EXTENT POLITICAL LEADERS AND 

 POLITICAL PARTIES, THEY HAVE 

 BEEN REELECTED AND ELECTED, AND

 IT IS NO LONGER A CASE OF 

 PRESENTING YOURSELF AS LEFTIST 

 CANDIDATE OR RIGHTIST 

 CANDIDATE.

 THE IDEOLOGIES HAVE CORRODED 

 AND PEOPLE LOST TRUST IN THEM 

 AND THE LEADERSHIP TO DELIVER 

 THE GOODS.

DOESN'T RING A BELL AT HOME 

 HERE?

I AM THE ONLY BRAZILIAN 

 HERE.

 THANK YOU FOR HAVING THIS 

 EVENT.

 I'M HAPPY IT HAPPENED.

 I WANTED TO PLAY DEVILS 

 ADVOCATE AND ASK YOU YOUR 

 OPINION ON JUDGE MORROW AND THE

 CAR WASH.

 THE LECTURE THIS AFTERNOON, 

 LIKE YOU ARE COMPLEMENTED.

 IT IS A GOOD THING THAT CAME 

 OUT OF BRAZIL, THOSE WHO DON'T 

 KNOW THE MAIN JUDGE, THE 

 ARCHITECT BEHIND THE OPERATION 

 IS THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE 

 WHICH I THINK AT LEAST PUT HIS 

 REPUTATION AT RISK.

 I WANT TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO TALK ABOUT

 SERGIO IN PARTICULAR?

 HE WAS A JUDGE WHO BEGAN -- 

 BECAME THE FOCAL POINT FOR THE 

 CAR WASH INVESTIGATION, DROVE 

 INVESTIGATIONS AND ORDERED THE 

 ARRESTS OF THE MANY PEOPLE WHO 

 GOT CAUGHT UP IN THIS AND 

 WORKING WITH FEDERAL POLICE 

 DEVELOPED ALL THE CASES IN THE 

 EARLY GOING.

 HE HAS BEEN NAMED MINISTER OF 

 JUSTICE BY PRESIDENT BOLSONARO.

 OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE SOME WHO 

 WERE VERY CONCERNED THAT HE HAD

 ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS A BEACON

 OF POSITIVE ACTION AGAINST 

 CORRUPTION, ALL THE CURRENT 

 POWERS THAT BE AND THIS 

 ULTIMATELY TAINTED IN SOME 

 FASHION.

 THERE ARE CONCERNS PRESIDENT 

 BOLSONARO, TO POLITICAL ENEMIES

 TO REDIRECT CORRUPTION 

 INVESTIGATIONS.

 HE WAS VERY RESPECTED IN THE 

 UNITED STATES AND ENGAGED WITH 

 US COUNTERPARTS IN AN 

 INTELLIGENT WAY.

 HE IS ONE OF THE FEW MEMBERS OF

 BOLSONARO'S CABINET WHO CANNOT 

 BE FIRED AND THAT IS A POWERFUL

 PLACE TO BE.

IT IS CALLED THE SUPREME 

 COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OF 

 AMERICA.

VERY MUCH.

 WHAT THIS MEANS, THE BIGGEST 

 CHALLENGE MOVING FROM A 

 JUDGESHIP, A BIG DEAL AND IT 

 REQUIRES A LOT OF HELP BUT IF 

 HE HAS THE RIGHT HELP AROUND 

 HIM HE HAS THE POTENTIAL OF 

 BEING A HUGELY IMPORTANT 

 JUSTICE MINISTER, 

 ANTI-CORRUPTION EFFORTS AND TO 

 BE VERY POSITIVE FOR BRAZIL 

 GOING FORWARD.

WE HAD TRADITIONALLY A 

 NUMBER OF BRAZILIAN LAWYERS, 

 SEVERAL OF THEM, THEY HAVE A 

 HIGH OPINION.

 YOUNG PROSECUTORS AND YOUNG 

 LAWYERS HAVE A BIT IN THEIR 

 TEETH, THEY HAVE DRIVEN THIS 

 AND WHEN YOU GET MOMENTUM IN AN

 AREA WHERE CORRUPTION IS BEING 

 FOUND OUT THINGS SHOULD CHANGE.

 I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE A 

 WARNING TO THOSE INSISTING 

 THERE WOULD BE A TENDENCY TO 

 SCAN OR WHATEVER IT IS, MAKE 

 DEALS, PUT THEM ON WARNING THE 

 GAME HAS CHANGED.

 IF YOU THINK OUR GOVERNMENT HAS

 CHANGED IN TERMS OF THE 

 CABINET, PEOPLE LEAVING, PEOPLE

 COMING, LOOK AT BRAZIL.

 THEY -- WE WILL SEE WITH 

 BOLSONARO BUT BEFORE MINISTERS 

 LEAVE, MINISTERS COME AND GO IT

 IS LIKE A MERRY-GO-ROUND.

 IF THERE IS CONTINUITY, I AGREE

 WITH YOU, THERE COULD BE 

 SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN THE 

 BRAZILIAN SYSTEM OF JUSTICE AND

 THE SOCIETY LOOKS AT THE 

 GOVERNMENT.

I GOT ONE LAST QUESTION AND 

 THAT IS ARE BOTH OF YOU SAYING 

 WHAT WE SAY, WHAT MANY PEOPLE 

 SAY IN THE UNITED STATES WHO 

 SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP BASICALLY 

 SAY DON'T REALLY LOOK AT THE 

 DIVISIVENESS AND RHETORIC, LOOK

 AT WHAT HE DOES AND WHAT HE 

 STANDS FOR.

 IN BRAZIL, THE ELECTORATE IN 

 BRAZIL PRETTY MUCH IF THEY 

 HAVEN'T ALREADY CONCLUDED THE 

 SAME THING, THAT BOLSONARO 

 STANDS FOR ABRUPT CHANGE FROM 

 THE OLD ORDER, FROM CORRUPTION 

 ETC..

 LET'S NOT WORRY ABOUT COMMENTS 

 HE MAKES ABOUT THE LGBTQ

 COMMUNITY ORIENTED GENEROUS 

 PEOPLE OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

 LET'S JUST GO WITH THE FACT 

 THAT HE IS PART OF A CHANGE AND

 WE WILL CONTINUE WITH HIM AS 

 OUR PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF THE 

 FACT THAT HE RECOGNIZES THE 

 PLACE IN HISTORY HIS RIGHT NOW 

 WITH BRAZIL.

THAT WAS HOW PEOPLE THOUGHT 

 AS THEY WALKED INTO POLLING 

 PLACES AND CAST THEIR BALLOTS.

 NOW THAT BOLSONARO IS 

 PRESIDENT, THAT IS GOING TO 

 INVOLVE.

 BRAZIL IS A BIG, DIVERSE 

 SOCIETY BUT IS STILL FAIRLY 

 CONSERVATIVE, FAIRLY 

 TRADITIONAL BUT EVEN WITH THAT 

 CONSERVATISM AND 

 TRADITIONALISM, IT IS A LIVE 

 AND LET LIVE COUNTRY.

 I JUST DON'T SEE BRAZIL BUYING 

 IN TO THE SOCIAL RHETORIC OF 

 THE PRESIDENT.

 THAT IS WHY I SAID EARLIER IF 

 HE WANTS TO BE SUCCESSFUL HE 

 HAS TO BE DISCIPLINED, ON 

 ACHIEVING THE CORE ISSUES OR 

 AREAS OF CONCERN THAT GOT HIM 

 ELECTED AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF

 THIS MOMENT IN TIME.

 OTHERWISE HE IS GOING TO FIND 

 HIMSELF TRYING TO IDEOLOGY EYES

 BRAZIL IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND I

 DON'T THINK IT WILL BE 

 UNDERSTOOD.

 LET ME TURN IT OVER, LET ME 

 CLOSE BY SAYING AN INCREDIBLE 

 BRAZILIAN ARTIST AND COMPOSER, 

 AND ANY OF THESE SONGS YOU 

 WOULD KNOW, HE FAMOUSLY SAID 

 BRAZIL IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS AND

 WHAT HE MEANT BY THAT IS BRAZIL

 IS A COMPLICATED PLACE.

 FROM FOOTBALL TO CARNIVAL TO 

 MUSIC.

 IT HAS A DEEP HISTORY TO IT.

 I ADDED SOMETHING ELSE WHICH IS

 BRAZIL IS NOT FOR SHORT TIMERS.

 IT IS NOT FOR HOT MONEY, NOT 

 FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT POLITICAL 

 ADVANTAGE.

 BRAZIL IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS.

 IT IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS THAT 

 ENDURE ACROSS A LIFETIME FOR 

 INDIVIDUALS AND COUNTRIES, AND 

 WE FIND AS WE GET DEEPER INTO 

 THIS PERIOD OF TIME BRAZILIANS 

 WILL SEE ESPECIALLY IN THE 

 RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED 

 STATES AND IMPORTANT POINT IS 

 STABILITY IN THE WAY TO DRIVE 

 THEIR OWN ECONOMY AND SOCIETY 

 FORWARD SO I THINK WE'RE IN A 

 VERY GOOD PLACE.

THAT IS GOOD TO HEAR.

 POSITIVE NEWS FROM SOMEWHERE.

 LAST WORDS?

BRAZIL GETS UNDER YOUR SKIN.

 IN MY DAY IN THE 60s AND 70s 

 THERE WERE A BUNCH OF 

 BRAZILIANS.

 MANY SERVED IN ANOTHER BIG 

 COUNTRY, I WAS ASPIRING TO 

 SERVE IN THE SOVIET UNION AS 

 WELL.

 THE COUNTRY IS BIG, IT IS 

 VIGOROUS.

 YOU'VE GOT TO LOVE THE 

 BRAZILIANS.

 THEY VARY FROM NORTH TO SOUTH.

 I SERVED IN THE NORTH.

 IT WAS A KIND OF -- IT WAS A 

 GENTEEL SOCIETY.

 PEOPLE WERE NICE, PEOPLE WERE 

 KIND, PEOPLE WENT OUT OF THE 

 WAY TO DO THINGS FOR YOU EVEN 

 IN DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES.

 IT GETS UNDER YOUR SKIN.

 I TRIED TO BE OPTIMISTIC.

 IT GETS UNDER MY SKIN WHEN I 

 SEE CORRUPTION COMING.

 THAT IS NOT GOING TO HELP 

 BRAZIL BECOME A GREAT COUNTRY.

 IT DIMINISHED IT SOMEWHAT IN 

 THE EYES OF THE WORLD.

 BRAZIL IS ACTIVE, HAS A ROLE TO

 PLAY IN THE REGION AND 

 INTERNATIONALLY.

 REMEMBER ONE THING, BRAZILIANS 

 HAVE BEEN ACTIVE, THEY HAVE 

 BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN THE 

 INTERNATIONAL CIVIL SERVICE.

 MANY OF THEM SERVED AS 

 REPRESENTATIVES OF THE 

 SECRETARY-GENERAL.

AND LOST THEIR LIVES.

WE HAD AN EXAMPLE OF THAT 

 KIND.

 IT IS A BIG, ACTIVE COUNTRY AND

 I THINK IT IS SPECIAL.

 I HOPE THINGS WORK WELL.

 I HOPE BOLSONARO CAST ASIDE THE

 THINGS HE SAID DURING THE 

 CAMPAIGN AND TRIES TO 

 ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING.

 I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF HUMAN

 CAPITAL AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

 IN BRAZIL THAT WILL ALLOW IT TO

 BE A MORE OUTSTANDING COUNTRY 

 AND LEADER IN INTERNATIONAL 

 AFFAIRS.

OKAY.

 WHERE ARE WE?

FROM MUSIC.

WAIT -- 

BY THE WAY, THE FIRST TRIP 

 PRESIDENT CARDOZA MADE TO THE 

 UNITED STATES AFTER HE WAS 

 ELECTED, TONTO BEEN HAD DIED OF

 FAILURE OF HIS LIVER.

 NATIONAL ICON.

 PEOPLE ALL OVER BRAZIL.

 THE SAME HAPPENED WITH RACE CAR 

 DRIVERS.

 THEY HAVE HUGE DEMONSTRATIONS, 

 KILLED IN CRASHES AND REALLY 

 ATTACHED WITH THESE ICONS.

PELE AND OTHER FAMOUS 

 FOOTBALL STARS, THE THING I AM 

 STRUCK WITH IS A LOT OF 

 DIPLOMATS WHO SERVE IN BRAZIL 

 KEEP COMING BACK.

 THERE IS SOMETHING THAT KEEPS 

 ATTRACTING THEM TO OUR SERVICE 

 IN BRAZIL.

 THE OTHER PART OF IT IS I AM 

 HOPING THAT THROUGH THIS 

 PODCAST THAT WE ARE DOING NOT 

 ONLY DO WE GET A BETTER 

 APPRECIATION FOR WHAT DIPLOMATS

 DO, IN THESE KINDS OF EPISODES,

 WERE ABLE TO LOOK AT WHAT OTHER

 COUNTRIES GO THROUGH AND BORROW

 THE BEST THE WORKS AS OPPOSED 

 TO THINKING WE HAVE ALL THE 

 ANSWERS.

 I DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS 

 AND THERE ARE THINGS THAT HAVE 

 BEEN TRIED AND FAILED AND 

 THINGS THE TRIED AND WORKED 

 LIKE FAMILIA AND OTHER THINGS 

 THAT MAYBE ARE THE ANSWER TO A 

 LOT OF THE KIND OF DEBATES WE 

 HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT 

 NEVER SEEM TO GET BEYOND THE 

 CAPITALISM VERSUS SOCIALISM IN 

 TERMS OF THE WAGE GAP IN THE 

 UNITED STATES THAT SEEMS TO BE 

 GROWING ON AN HOURLY BASIS.

 LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL.

 IT WAS AN INTERESTING EPISODE 

 FOR ALL OF US.

 WHAT DO YOU HAVE FOR MUSIC?

A GIRL FROM UP ANYMORE.

 I WILL SING IT WITH YOU.

 HOW DOES IT START?

WITHOUT MUSIC?

WE WILL DO A DUET.

IS A LOADED?

 WHAT ARE WE DOING?

 OKAY.

 [LAUGHTER] 

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE YOU.

 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 

THAT IS SO BEAUTIFUL.

THIS IS A FIRST, THIS IS A 

 PODCAST EPISODE THAT HAS MEL 

 LEVITSKY  SINGING AMONG HIS 

 OTHER TALENTS.

 IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO 

 SING?

MEL HAS SAID IT ALL.

THANK YOU FOR COMING.

THANK YOU ALL.

 [APPLAUSE]